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Keothi



Joined: Jul 08, 2013

Post   Posted: Feb 27, 2018 - 00:29 Reply with quote Back to top

Was going to suggest Pro for the improved odds to TTM, or +MA because MA7 is pretty sweet too
Shushnik



Joined: Feb 27, 2006

Post   Posted: Feb 27, 2018 - 00:37 Reply with quote Back to top

Pro is dicey if he's carrying the ball. A team reroll should be used instead in many situations because pro failure is a problem.
Java



Joined: Jan 27, 2018

Post   Posted: Feb 27, 2018 - 00:53 Reply with quote Back to top

Shushnik wrote:
Pro is dicey if he's carrying the ball. A team reroll should be used instead in many situations because pro failure is a problem.


If it's mainly for TTM in a One Turn TD, the team reroll might have already been used for catching the ball or throwing, especially if we're talking about a troll.

Ideally you would have a ag4/catch/sure feet/sprint gobbo for that role, but even with that, pro makes the landing slightly safer so I'd say go for it!
Nightbird



Joined: Aug 02, 2003

Post   Posted: Feb 27, 2018 - 01:50 Reply with quote Back to top

c9805222 wrote:
pro as its the only skill that will help land a ttm


If only they could get that 'sure feets' skill right...

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Catalyst32



Joined: Jul 14, 2008

Post   Posted: Feb 27, 2018 - 04:38 Reply with quote Back to top

Shushnik wrote:
Pro is dicey if he's carrying the ball. A team reroll should be used instead in many situations because pro failure is a problem.



My Goblin is only ever carrying the ball on a TTM or if he picks it up after a scrum. I have 3 Blitzers with AG4 and 1 of them also as ST4. AND I just introduced 2 Throwers to the team to help STYMIE some TRICKSY ELVSISHES.
I prefer to use a Goblin when I do use him for non-TTM's as a Runners Sidekick or Escort... or as a Safety that can squeeze into a few key spots for the assist (or maybe to pick up a ball no one else can get that someone else popped loose).
And honestly... the main role I use a Goblin for during "normal" play he is perfectly suited for on game 1 with no skills.

But for TTM's you have to realize a TEAM REROLL may not be available. It is usually turn 8 or 16. And in theory if things are bad enough that a TTM is in order... then things have gone poorly enough that you have USED your rerolls trying to not be in the position you now find yourself. Attempting a TTM.

And think of all the rolls required to succeed at the TTM.
Pickup (w or w/o Sure Hands)
Maybe some GFI's (w or w/o Sure Feets)
A Catch (w or w/o Catch)
Maybe a Pass (w or w/o Pass)
Probably a few Blocks to remove some TZ's away from your Troll.
Maybe a Blitz! to help clear an area OR because it is Turn 8 and MAYBE you can get a lucky CAS.
AND THAT IS JUST GETING THE BALL TO THE GOBLIN!!!

Then the Troll has to 1) Activate, 2) Pick up the Goblin without him wriggling away, 3) NOT EAT THE GIT!!!, 4) Actually throw him, 5) Throw him far enough...
Then the Goblin has to safely 1) LAND, 2) maybe GFI a few times, 3) maybe Dodge a few times (and maybe Dodge away from players with Tackle like DORFS).

Even IF you have a team Reroll... and you pick up with a player who has Sure Hands, Sure Feet and Pass... and your Goblin has Catch and Sure Feet... PRO on the Goblin can help on the Landing on GFIs AFTER Sure Feet has been used on his 1st GFI.
And just having Pro means the Goblin has a backup on the Catch, the Landing and the GFIs.

I think I'm going to take Pro... or maybe +MA... I'll have to think it out.
ArrestedDevelopment



Joined: Sep 14, 2015

Post   Posted: Feb 27, 2018 - 13:46 Reply with quote Back to top

You'll never be passing before a ttm attempt Wink

But yes, it is a lot of rolls - I think I'd be more inclined to ask myself - if i was going all-in on ttm, surely just a gobbo with catch or surefeet would be better?

Pro on the gob does nothing for all the pickup etc, the first place it'll come into play possibly is the handover - 3+, with catch, auto-rr 3+, pro is 4+ just to attempt the 3+ again. Say you make it, all good, the troll throwing the gobbo is something the gob's pro can't reroll (he can reroll the wriggle-free or crash-land attempt, but again, 4+ for either of those, and it's still a failed ttm).

The landing is where you'd really want to use it, but there it is 4+ to reroll a 4+ (or 5+/6+ if your opponent had enough left to setup properly and the scatter wasn't extremely kind). Dodges through tackle etc are back to 4+ to reroll a 3+ territory, and gfi are obviously 4+ to rr a 2+.


Basically... While you've got a chance of rerolling any of that, the only thing you get a chance to reroll that you couldn't get from skills on any of it is the landing... and that's a 25% chance of making the pro then making the 4+.

That's pretty far from value for a 30k skill.

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garyt1



Joined: Mar 12, 2011

Post   Posted: Feb 27, 2018 - 21:55 Reply with quote Back to top

Is it this Orc team? You went for +AV? Very Happy That is out of left field.
https://fumbbl.com/p/team?team_id=842537

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Catalyst32



Joined: Jul 14, 2008

Post   Posted: Mar 01, 2018 - 18:22 Reply with quote Back to top

ArrestedDevelopment wrote:
You'll never be passing before a ttm attempt Wink

But yes, it is a lot of rolls - I think I'd be more inclined to ask myself - if i was going all-in on ttm, surely just a gobbo with catch or surefeet would be better?

Pro on the gob does nothing for all the pickup etc, the first place it'll come into play possibly is the handover - 3+, with catch, auto-rr 3+, pro is 4+ just to attempt the 3+ again. Say you make it, all good, the troll throwing the gobbo is something the gob's pro can't reroll (he can reroll the wriggle-free or crash-land attempt, but again, 4+ for either of those, and it's still a failed ttm).

The landing is where you'd really want to use it, but there it is 4+ to reroll a 4+ (or 5+/6+ if your opponent had enough left to setup properly and the scatter wasn't extremely kind). Dodges through tackle etc are back to 4+ to reroll a 3+ territory, and gfi are obviously 4+ to rr a 2+.


Basically... While you've got a chance of rerolling any of that, the only thing you get a chance to reroll that you couldn't get from skills on any of it is the landing... and that's a 25% chance of making the pro then making the 4+.

That's pretty far from value for a 30k skill.



TRUE AND FALSE. Remember the Goblin HAS Dodge it would only be the rare TTM attempt where there is enough Tackle to Strip him of the use of Dodge where Pro could come into play.

And of course I am not counting on the Goblin having Pro to account for the Pick Up or GFI's of the player bringing him the Hand Off. (I titally screwed up when I suggested there might be a Pass before the TTM though). And I am not counting on Pro to cover for any of the rolls the TROLL must make. THOSE ROLLS are where you want the TEAM REROLL (or perhaps a teammate with Sure Hands and Sure Feet and perhaps a Troll with Pro of his own).

And sure Catch on the Handoff is better than Pro.
And Sure Feet on the GFI's us better than Pro.
But... what is you have only Sure Feet... and you are out of team rerolls and the roll you FAIL is the Catch? What good is that Sure Feet skill on the Catch roll? Or... conversely what good is having Catch when the roll you fail is the 1st GFI?

Those skills tend to be absolutely worthless unless you FAIL to make those specific rolls. Not Pro... it is potentially useful on every failed roll.

Do you know which roll you are going to fail?
ME NEITHER. I don't know when I am going to roll snakes or skulls.
But I know I can use Pro on any roll I fail with the player I am using if he has the skill.

And I don't just use my Goblin for TTM. Granted that is his primary role on the team... but he plays in multiple situations. It seems he is always a key piece in winning the match when I get the feeling I am going to need him.

But I don't Pass to him... and I don't Carry with him. So Sure Hands and Catch seem like a waste to me. BUT in a pinch he may need to pick up the ball or take a handoff or a catch short pass. Pro covers that in 1 SKILL SLOT for 30k... instead of 2 SKILL SLOTS for 40k.

Sure Feet I will probably take at some point should ha live. And maybe at some point Sprint. And having Pro can help combo with those skills. Sure Feet only works 1 time per turn... but you can GFI 2 (or 3) times per turn and Pro can cover a 2nd failed roll.

Plus... if I get another DOUBLE... Pro is a nice combo to backup a Dauntless roll which is likely where I would go. And it combos well with Jump Up which is a key skill in the build of my team as a whole.
Catalyst32



Joined: Jul 14, 2008

Post   Posted: Mar 01, 2018 - 18:26 Reply with quote Back to top

garyt1 wrote:
Is it this Orc team? You went for +AV? Very Happy That is out of left field.
https://fumbbl.com/p/team?team_id=842537



That is the team... but I picked the +AV on accident. I am going to fill out a support ticket as soon as I make the decision on which skill I am going to take.

I have been singing the praises of Pro because IMO it is a far better skill than most here think it is AND because I might actually take it. But +MA, Guard, Dauntless and a few others are still possible.

I have been working 12+ hours a day on most days since I 1st posted the OP in this thread. So... not much time to think it out but I don't have a game until early next week. So... league wise I have the time.
ArrestedDevelopment



Joined: Sep 14, 2015

Post   Posted: Mar 01, 2018 - 18:55 Reply with quote Back to top

What i really mean is I don't think it's worth bothering to think about most use for ttm - just pick a skill that will help out everywhere. If you think that's pro, then go for it.

I honestly don't think I'd be throwing a block gobbo anyway... but then I'd have taken wrestle or dp on the first skill.

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MattDakka



Joined: Oct 09, 2007

Post   Posted: Mar 01, 2018 - 19:11 Reply with quote Back to top

+MA.
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