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keggiemckill



Joined: Oct 07, 2004

Post   Posted: Mar 15, 2018 - 02:36 Reply with quote Back to top

noobie2k7 wrote:
I'd kill to have an AG4 Bull. . .


I’d kill an Ag4 Bull

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Kaintxu



Joined: Mar 13, 2018

Post   Posted: Mar 15, 2018 - 03:35 Reply with quote Back to top

Thanks for all the answers and some very valid info here.

I am ne win the forum, and don't play FUMBBL, but I do play the game often.

I came to aks here as a good source of knowledge, and didn't want to create any argument.

Thank you everyone
Catalyst32



Joined: Jul 14, 2008

Post   Posted: Mar 15, 2018 - 04:06 Reply with quote Back to top

Yeah, FIRE THAT CENTAUR!!! He will be TOO BLOATED in TV.

He is going to cost SO MUCH and... like... who need that kind of BROKEN AG4 more than a team of AG2 guys and AV7 guys with AG3.

How could he possibly be worth keeping? Rolling Eyes


I guess if you don't want to WIN GAMES you shouldn't take the 2nd best Skill/Advancement in Training in the whole game. The best being +STRENGTH... although I suppose it is debatable based on which player is getting the +ST or +AG.


Last edited by Catalyst32 on Mar 15, 2018 - 06:07; edited 1 time in total
Catalyst32



Joined: Jul 14, 2008

Post   Posted: Mar 15, 2018 - 04:17 Reply with quote Back to top

Antithesisoftime wrote:
Keothi wrote:
Antithesisoftime responded and I think his reasoning makes sense.
Her, for future reference.
No offense taken, I know none was meant



HER? Pics or you are a DUDE! MAN LAW.



jk. Don't really care what your gender is just hoping someone got a laugh at the twist in Pics or your GF doesn't exist (standard internet joke). Hope you get a laugh as well. If not... geez... tough crowd.
Catalyst32



Joined: Jul 14, 2008

Post   Posted: Mar 15, 2018 - 04:27 Reply with quote Back to top

mrt1212 wrote:
Man, if you take things too seriously you should be fired into the sun.



I know, right? I didn't know they had snowflakes or even SNOW in Australia. The Sun would DEFINITELY be the way to fix that issue.

Jog on SJW.
Catalyst32



Joined: Jul 14, 2008

Post   Posted: Mar 15, 2018 - 04:36 Reply with quote Back to top

Keothi wrote:
Why can't it be taken seriously? I want to be able to hop onto the forums and post and then have other coaches offer their own 2 cents worth, but keep it about the game and back up their own thoughts with reasons/evidence. If they disagree on tactical grounds/reasons on anything I've put forward I'll happily read it, maybe learn something and if I need to clarify anything, I'll respond.

I've been reading these forum threads for months and I can see that there is an active core of coaches who contribute to these threads and also shoot down people with less knowledge of the game. Maybe it's not even a conscious thing, it's people who have superior knowledge and then act superior in front of those who are learning. Why do you think the forums have a core of certain coaches and then very few new coaches joining in on the forums? It's daunting to step into the forums and ask questions or post comments when you get flamed/shot down; this reaction has been brewing for a while as it's a cumulative issue and I finally decided to stand up and say "Hey, I don't appreciate that kind of culture." Such is always the way when someone finally has enough of being bullied or harassed or constantly shot down by others.



Here's why you can't do what you just did.

Because YOU are being a bigger dong than the guy who made an OBVIOUS JOKE (even if you were the butt of said joke) that the guy who was a dong to you by making the joke.

The sheer volume in the amount of words he used to make what anyone that is not an overly sensitive dong demonstrates how much more of a dong you have to be to do what you are still doing.

His amount of being a dong adds up to ..."EH-oh Bada-bing."
Your amount of being a dong... well... you count the number of words you have used to try to change HARMLESS internet humor-culture on a site made for having FUN into some sort of BLAND and SERIOUS FORUM of CULTURE and whatever other BORING and LIFE-SUCKING descriptive words. This isn't the realm of Academia or Political Theorum... It is a place people talk about an UNPOPLULAR BOARD GAME. Take your AGENDA to 4CHAN or the DailyCos.
But really... and more importantly... and really the whole freaking point... LEARN TO TAKE A FREAKING JOKE.
Catalyst32



Joined: Jul 14, 2008

Post   Posted: Mar 15, 2018 - 04:46 Reply with quote Back to top

Verminardo wrote:
It is also occasionally useful for blitzing free of those nasty Diving Tackle Side Step markers.



Good point.

I have never quite understood how much this sites "orthodoxy" of what skills to take or not take tends to overlook TACKLE as a skill choice. BUT at the same time the same "orthodoxy" complains about how BROKEN Elves are for having BLODGE and AG4.

And maybe it isn't the exact same people on both side of that standard areas of thought in HOW TO play the game here and what skills to take. Never bothered to see if it is the same people on both sides.

Moreover I am not saying all don't take enough Tackle. Surely many do.

But the thought of BLODGE AG4 = Broken and Why take so much Tackle tend to run rampant here. (And I want to add that I bring this up because Verminado was taking about Side Step and Diving Tackle... but did not mention Blodge or Elves but you KNOW it is inferred in the comment in most instances).

In closing...
TACKLE... it BREAKS ELVES and LEAVES THEM BROKEN.
TACKLE... the reason AG4 and BLODGE is not BROKEN.
TACKLE... take it. Use it.
mrt1212



Joined: Feb 26, 2013

Post   Posted: Mar 15, 2018 - 07:17 Reply with quote Back to top

And if you want an explainer on why orthodox opinions are generally good here, this is actually quite simple - the people who have stuck around have a method of play that keeps rewarding them with wins and those with bad methods who don't learn or adapt usually leave. Now there isn't a 1:1 ratio of 'good coaches' to sticking around, some folks just love the game in spite of the outcomes and that's actually more impressive a feat than being good at the game.

And speaking to my own personal journey, I stumbled through many different teams and ideas before getting rooted in better methodologies and selecting elves and humans as my jams. Now I'm still not where I want to be in terms of outcome (winning 2/3rds of my games against everyone). And I still lapse at times and play poorly. I also have moments of pure inspiration against better coaches which is all the difference in some cases. But I have a framework and understanding of the game that makes me feel confident in any match against any coach provided I can use a team of my design (usually 1800+ TW and High Elves, Humans or Dark Elves).

And there's no shame in finding your niche. Every coach has one and on a long enough timeline a coach will gravitate towards what suits themselves. Some really have the game locked down at sub-1500 TV with dwarves. Others flourish with elves at the 1700-2000 range. Some love leagues and weirdo stunty teams, others are acolytes of the tournament. The key is identifying what works for you and working it to death.

The biggest stumbling block for this game for new participants is unrealistic expectations on performance - many come at this game with some latent male/nerd ego attached where they're smart in another realm, say their job or academia, and assume that they're entitled to flex nuts in a game that takes spatial visualization and risk intuition to the limit.

It's not like that. Would you believe that three of the best coaches (IMHO) are a professional thespian, a dog trainer and a teacher? Well believe it! I've seen so many entitled smart dudes waltz onto fumbbl thinking they'll run show and then hit a roadblock and blame the game itself for their lack of good outcomes.

Also, I've alluded to this many times but games at the highest level are metaphors for life. Blood Bowl is especially keen in emphasizing the old chestnut of "you can't control the wind but you can adjust your sails". To me the actual joy of this game is the lessons you can glean from it on managing expectations and persevering through adversity. You will have bad games - but the sun will rise tomorrow.

I might take this too far, especially with my veneration for Nuffle as a deity and I don't suggest others follow my lead there but there is an almost spiritual element to Blood Bowl. There is a certain zen achieved when you've given it your best effort and you and your opponent both know it irrespective of the outcome. In fact some of the most useful experiences in Blood Bowl are playing an A+ game and losing!

And I don't intend to rob folks of their catharsis but your character is in no small part shaped by how you handle adversity and situational unfairness. Are you someone who externalizes those situations and puts the blame on randomness or game design? Or are you someone who takes stock of their lapses and tries to figure out how to do better in the future? One of the foundational aspects of any game is respecting when you get bested and finding ways to prevent that in the future.

Changing gears I think there is definitely a gap in how longer tenured coaches dispense advice to shorter tenured ones. My personal belief is that mentorship at the tactical level is a much better approach than one-to-many shots in the dark at the team building. One of the factors in this is that some aspects of Blood Bowl are so situational and 'it depends'. But a lot of that is at the tactical level. At the strategic level vis a vis team building there is not as much of that. Very few things in this game are unexplored (I have pet theories about the the potential of Shadowing and Jump Up which is why I put them as utility skills and if you subscribe to my newsletter you can be informed of them) but there are some known dead ends and there is a pretty sticky approximation of relative value of skills in the community. Most questions revolving around skills revolve around "what does the rest of your team have or not have" or "what maximizes this player's utility the most" and qualified by likely opponents and TV. With teams in Box and Ranked it's assumed there will be some variance in teams a coach plays against instead of hyper tuned builds. Given the rough approximation of relative value there winds up being only a handful of options for any given question though the answers change all the time because 'it depends' Wink

One of the reasons that I think mentorship is a better approach though is that once someone understands what's happening on the tactical level, the skill choices are much clearer based on first hand experience and an understanding of what needs to be done and an intuition for good risk reward exchanges.

Keep in mind that I have a strong preference and experience with high and ultra high TV teams so the way I approach a lot of this is rooted in that. There are definitely harder choices to make at lower TV and with specific teams. I also try not to give advice at this point because I realize I mostly have answers that work for me on some level but may or may not be holding me back from achieving better. But one of the negative effects is that rather than positively affirming the value of a skill and putting myself out there in vouching for it and possibly looking the fool, it's much easier to just rule skills out. That's my problem though and not everyone has this, they're just very confident they're right all the time. Wink

One last thought - asking tactical questions is much much harder. And giving good answers is also hard without trying to invoke some objective measure of the risk involved...and yet sometimes the most valuable turns aren't the ones where you take a 4+ dodge and - 2d6 block with your strip baller on a mook in a loose cage because it was the best risk/reward move available at the time but the proceeding turn where you could have set up a better move with less risk.

One of the major absent discussions around Blood Bowl is risk loading across turns. With elves the risk profile of a turn can vary greatly from turn to turn depending on the situation. With Undead or Khemri there is a lower variance in the types and amount of risk loaded into a turn. But there is basically no discussion in how you can position in one turn to either ramp up or draw down risk in the subsequent. Now I know that some people are saying this is impossible but I don't buy it. This isn't pondering what it means to be 'good', this is about controlling the board so that you have opportunities to keep running the clock or snatching the ball or stopping a tieing score in the next turn. My feeling is that coaches understand these things in the moment but can't retroactively break down everything that was going down in that moment.

This isn't to say that there haven't been admirable singular stabs at it like with Wreckage's 1000 losses playbook, but there isn't an ongoing discussion about what does and doesn't work at the tactical level and how you can make your life easier one turn and especially two turns in advance.

And again, this is where mentorship can possibly step in.


Last edited by mrt1212 on Mar 15, 2018 - 18:02; edited 1 time in total
bghandras



Joined: Feb 06, 2011

Post   Posted: Mar 15, 2018 - 09:10 Reply with quote Back to top

First of all i am insulted by you not knowing my profession as the top3 coach. (Insert some funny face here, hahaha.)

Turn - I have been long advocating that in bbowl one plays the clock first, and only then the race. It involves risk planning, and allocating risk levels to different turns, and switching gears when a risk level of plan A reaches a critical level.

Tackle - This is a really interesting skill. It does absolutely NOTHING on its own, so one should have a great reason to take it anyway. This is a contingency plan, for cases they may not occur in a given game. (You may not meet dodge, or just never roll defender stumbles.) So it is very logical to try to make it work with as little tackle as possible. Also note, that the Worth of 1st tackle is much bigger than the 10th. So it is not a skill that best practice to spam.

Skill selection is an interesting topic! It is difficult in a bbox environment. On the other hand imagine how complex decisions can be had in a different environment, lets say in DLE (link and reference below), where coaches cant just take skills, but use a list of players with skills and positions, and select them according to rules. Plus making trades between teams. I am positive to say that the DLE coaches improved a lot during the 2 years of the league as the probably engaged in bbowl more often than most other coaches. (Spectating a game almost every day, and discussing critical turns in spectator mode in an extremely high TW environment gives a lot of food for thought, and practice time.)
I got a little drifted here, but take away the point about context, evaluation, and practice reps frequency. (And while we are here, DLE is looking for waitlist applicants who can join the league in the next few weeks/months.)

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Sp00keh



Joined: Dec 06, 2011

Post   Posted: Mar 15, 2018 - 17:06 Reply with quote Back to top

Great post mrt1212
It's probably 2x the length it should be but still great :p

Part the reason it's so hard to explain tactical related things is either, you talk about a super specific single situation, and tear that apart,
Or you can only talk in general terms which becomes very abstract because so much instantly becomes "it depends"

I want to see more tactical discussions on here

There was something ages ago with screenshots of a match state and it was like problem solving. You needed to score, what's the best option
Sadly it's actually more a maths problem. Who can find the best percentage option in elyoukey's action calculator

Instead, maybe a screenshot from midway in a game would be good, "this is the gamestate, what do you do?" because then it's about explaining intentions, plans etc
Which is like mentoring, I guess.
awambawamb



Joined: Feb 17, 2008

Post   Posted: Mar 15, 2018 - 19:16 Reply with quote Back to top

mrt1212 wrote:
much stuff

...and I mostly agree. I found my place and my teams, the right mix of derp and magic, the sweet sound of the boot and the glorious T16 FOUL (it fires men into the sun, in a way).

keggiemckill wrote:
noobie2k7 wrote:
I'd kill to have an AG4 Bull. . .


I’d kill an Ag4 Bull

I'd foul to death an Ag4 Bull, in turn 16

Spyro wrote:
RNG is broken

...some posts gave me goosebumps.

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thoralf



Joined: Mar 06, 2008

Post   Posted: Mar 15, 2018 - 20:02 Reply with quote Back to top

mrt1212 wrote:
if you subscribe to my newsletter you can be informed of them


Shut up and take my money.

No, scratch the shut up part.

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lolvenom



Joined: Jan 27, 2007

Post   Posted: Mar 15, 2018 - 20:32 Reply with quote Back to top

mrt1212 wrote:
in general here are the money skills:

Block, Dodge, Guard, Tackle, Mighty Blow, Juggernaut, Frenzy, Side Step, Stand Firm


mrt, would you mind taking the time to explain why Juggernaut is in the must have category? The rest (except maybe Frenzy) are applicable to almost all players in a team but that one appears an outlier.

I've seen you put it to great use but it still seems quite niche.
Throweck



Joined: Feb 23, 2013

Post   Posted: Mar 15, 2018 - 20:35 Reply with quote Back to top

Juggernaut is useful on frenzy players for surfing.

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mrt1212



Joined: Feb 26, 2013

Post   Posted: Mar 15, 2018 - 21:22 Reply with quote Back to top

lolvenom wrote:
mrt1212 wrote:
in general here are the money skills:

Block, Dodge, Guard, Tackle, Mighty Blow, Juggernaut, Frenzy, Side Step, Stand Firm


mrt, would you mind taking the time to explain why Juggernaut is in the must have category? The rest (except maybe Frenzy) are applicable to almost all players in a team but that one appears an outlier.

I've seen you put it to great use but it still seems quite niche.


For me it has 3 uses, 2 obvious, 1 that isnt and which is probably the most dastardly.

1. Pure surf moves. The threat is often enough to tilt some positioning in your favor. With Frenzy this is even better but paired with Grab (and Grab is an interesting skill but I find it hard to justify often times on anything other than big guys or mummies. I had fun with an elven one with Jump up and side step for two games before he was fouled to death for being the abomination he was)

2. Complicated chains that rely on a push at the very least to fully work and with frenzy 1 push in the first 2d6 and any result in the 2nd. Think OTTDs and chains involving SS players.

3. Ripping the face off of people that forget it cancels out wrestle on a blitz. Sometimes that lapse opens up a cascade of other moves.

Okay, and obviously for Standfirm targets on a blitz. But thats obvious.


Last edited by mrt1212 on Mar 16, 2018 - 00:19; edited 2 times in total
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