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Sp00keh



Joined: Dec 06, 2011

Post   Posted: Apr 06, 2018 - 19:07 Reply with quote Back to top

ah ok

Imo an uw team would benefit more with skills pumped into blizter than thrower, at least early on.

Saurus you ideally want all of them to have at least block, right? And then you would maybe give spp to whoever is nearest a skillup. Different options there tho.


I disagree that all rosters benefit equally from d3 MVP.
Dwarves for examole it probably doesn't make as much difference. You can focus guys sure, but they all benefit from having guard everywhere, for example

If they're not all equal then there is some roster which gains the most benefit. I think that's UW, vamps and lizards are strong possibilities also


Last edited by Sp00keh on Apr 06, 2018 - 19:11; edited 1 time in total
mrt1212



Joined: Feb 26, 2013

Post   Posted: Apr 06, 2018 - 19:10 Reply with quote Back to top

I have zero complaints.
Chainsaw



Joined: Aug 31, 2005

Post   Posted: Apr 06, 2018 - 19:13 Reply with quote Back to top

MattDakka wrote:
Maybe a better system could be giving 1 SPP to every player after a game (to help a steady growth of the team) and assigning 1d6 SPPs randomly to one of them, or a system based on actual performance, so only players who gained 1 or more SPPs in-game could be nominated for the MVP.
The current system looks to me "intensive training" rather than an MVP.

I was thinking of that 1spp per game (but didn't bother to suggest it since my opinion is irrelevant to whomever decides the rules). I agree with your whole post.

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thoralf



Joined: Mar 06, 2008

Post   Posted: Apr 06, 2018 - 20:41 Reply with quote Back to top

Sp00keh wrote:
Dwarves for examole it probably doesn't make as much difference.


My own experience runs contrary to that probability.

Three CAS on three blockers in one game means I have a Guard after one game. In fact, my Chic Shocks has 7 Guard in eight game. Without doubles, they'd have 10. Guard helps the other guys get the 2 SPP needed to be eligible to the MVP lottery. In doubt, feed your blitzers.

I think your intuition is that the new rule helps stacking skills. I don't think it's the case. Here's why. The most important aspect of SPP spreading is the nonlinearity of the skills, which leads to a risk issue. If you invest in a war dancer during 15 games and he dies, then it sucks. If you spread your SPPs across all your beards, you risk less. So what you gain by stacking skills is riskier, because getting a guy to stardom is more expensive. (This effect is worsened by seasons.) This is alright, as having a star really is an asset. And I speak on behalf of all the beards who chased down a war dancer here.

If you prefer, consider this thought experiment. Let a team have 10 MVPs, so 75 SPPs. Spread them any way you want. Add 1-2 SPP here and there ten times or so to get skills. What would you do?

One path is to get a very good player. Another path is to get lots of skills. The first gives guys who can dominate a game for sure, the other gives you more rolls, so more possibilities of getting stats.

I personally would go for spreading skills. But then I like redundancy. I really do like redundancy. Redundancy is something I like. A lot.

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PurpleChest



Joined: Oct 25, 2003

Post   Posted: Apr 06, 2018 - 22:46 Reply with quote Back to top

Sp00keh wrote:

Dwarves for example it probably doesn't make as much difference.


Massively wrong.

Dwarves benefit hugely from being able to follow a single cas with entry into the D3 mvp. Once there you can push on for MB or wait while guarding up the others. once Guard/MB you can stop feeding them and bring the others up or feed a star, or feed the blitzers. It means you get lethal FAR faster, and less likely to be carrying a bloaty beard with 4 skills, 2 of which you dont need or cant support due to the rest being rookies.

Dwarves also didnt PO as much as some str based races, instead relying on number of MB hitters, rather then single killing pieces (at least my dorfs did/do).

So Dwarves did just fine, look elsewhere for a race that it did little for.

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mrt1212



Joined: Feb 26, 2013

Post   Posted: Apr 06, 2018 - 22:54 Reply with quote Back to top

PurpleChest wrote:
Sp00keh wrote:

Dwarves for example it probably doesn't make as much difference.


Massively wrong.

Dwarves benefit hugely from being able to follow a single cas with entry into the D3 mvp. Once there you can push on for MB or wait while guarding up the others. once Guard/MB you can stop feeding them and bring the others up or feed a star, or feed the blitzers. It means you get lethal FAR faster, and less likely to be carrying a bloaty beard with 4 skills, 2 of which you dont need or cant support due to the rest being rookies.

Dwarves also didnt PO as much as some str based races, instead relying on number of MB hitters, rather then single killing pieces (at least my dorfs did/do).

So Dwarves did just fine, look elsewhere for a race that it did little for.


To me, it seems that there isn't one team that it does little for. Every team benefits in some way whether its:

1. Skilling up the hard skillers more easily
2. Super charging the easy skillers even more
3. Allowing a medium paced skilling for utility players that merely get one pass or CAS and rely on MVPs for all subsequent skilling rather than skills or actions that grant skills. Think your 3rd or 4th blitzer without a +MA or AG or MB selection. Or a kick lino.
Chainsaw



Joined: Aug 31, 2005

Post   Posted: Apr 06, 2018 - 22:56 Reply with quote Back to top

Chainsaw wrote:
MattDakka wrote:
Maybe a better system could be giving 1 SPP to every player after a game (to help a steady growth of the team) and assigning 1d6 SPPs randomly to one of them, or a system based on actual performance, so only players who gained 1 or more SPPs in-game could be nominated for the MVP.
The current system looks to me "intensive training" rather than an MVP.

I was thinking of that 1spp per game (but didn't bother to suggest it since my opinion is irrelevant to whomever decides the rules). I agree with your whole post.

Maybe a better way would be to roll for each player. 1-3 no spp. 4-6 roll again. 1-3 1spp. 4-5 2spp. 6 5spp. Made that up on the spot, but you get the idea - take away the guarantee of spp but bump a few players a bit and occasionally one a bit more.

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Traul



Joined: Jun 09, 2013

Post   Posted: Apr 07, 2018 - 04:52 Reply with quote Back to top

Elves arguably benefit less than other races. G+A means everyone is worth skilling up, and AGI 4 already gives you the tools to choose who gains SPP on the field. The main gain for them is keeping the wounded scrimmage fodder out of the MVP lottery.
mrt1212



Joined: Feb 26, 2013

Post   Posted: Apr 07, 2018 - 06:36 Reply with quote Back to top

Traul wrote:
Elves arguably benefit less than other races. G+A means everyone is worth skilling up, and AGI 4 already gives you the tools to choose who gains SPP on the field. The main gain for them is keeping the wounded scrimmage fodder out of the MVP lottery.


Until you need a kicker ASAP.
Sp00keh



Joined: Dec 06, 2011

Post   Posted: Apr 07, 2018 - 09:16 Reply with quote Back to top

Ok... let's say there's 2 approaches to MVP. A team can swap between these as much as they like


A - Spread MVP around, to push players towards skillups, or whatever you want
B - Stack MVP on a few players

Option A helps dwarves guard all mens fairly easily, for example. It also can suit elves, humans, etc
All rosters may or may not benefit equally from Option A


Option B lets you focus and build stars. (yes, this is a risk)
So it suits saurus, werewolves, wardancers, vampires, that type of thing. the sort of positional who already carries a team naturally anyway


I should have narrowed my scope, but didn't realise the point would be so controversial:
- The fewer key players you have, the more you can focus them, if you want
- So Option B does not benefit all rosters equally
- imo UW have just 3 key players, so they benefit the most from Option B
ArrestedDevelopment



Joined: Sep 14, 2015

Post   Posted: Apr 07, 2018 - 15:44 Reply with quote Back to top

Sp00keh wrote:

- imo UW have just 3 key players, so they benefit the most from Option B


I disagree with this anyway, but the other thing is that you've created a situation where upon you agree that the thrower, linerats etc can use some SPP, but that you "can just score with them".

You can apply that logic to other teams pretty easily too:

Let's say I start the classic 1 wolf/ghoul necro roster. I only ever MVP the wolf and Flesh golems because the ghoul and wights can just score TDs or cas. In this situation not only am I pumping MVPs into only 3 players, but it's three players on a better team, two of which have a harder time skilling than the blitzers. The other of which is a much better player than the troll and can now easily be recycled if no doubles without hurting the team at all.

Undead: I only bother MVPing the Mummies and a ghoul of my choice (perhaps I only even run one ghoul) - ghouls only really need one-two skills to gain max value and the mummies will now accelerate to gain skills faster. Wights and any other ghouls can just score TDs.

Vamps, i just take three vamps.

Ad infinitum.

You created an artificial "rule of three" imo, and you can do that anywhere. I also don't think it's particularly effective; I'd rather have these guys than your UW team for example. Or for a team that isn't my own with a similar number of games played to yours, try MenonaLoco's.

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Last edited by ArrestedDevelopment on Apr 07, 2018 - 17:33; edited 2 times in total
thoralf



Joined: Mar 06, 2008

Post   Posted: Apr 07, 2018 - 17:06 Reply with quote Back to top

Sp00keh wrote:
All rosters may or may not benefit equally from Option A


This may or may not be a concession.

Simple arithmetic should reveal that spreading SPPs around gets more skills than stacking them. Which team exactly doesn't profit from having more skills on the field? I only took Dorfs because it was the example provided. Anyone could spam skills on any team, including elves. This should be obvious to DE, HE and PE coaches. They all could easily nurture 7 players.

Let's try our thought experiment (75 SPPs, rounding up) on rookie Woodies, and give the two war dancers Wrestle and Tackle. That's 32 SPPs (*).

The tree wants Guard or Grab. Endzone-the-Thinker and Harad-the-Legend-of-all-races-in-Box suggest (pers. comm.) Guard, and my own experience agrees. 6 SPPs.

We need two catchers with either Wrestle or Block. No need to invest more for now, they die. If we don't go 3 catchers, a thrower makes sense. I might be biased. Dodge or Sure Hands is enough and doesn't entice fouls. 18SPPs.

We still have 19 SPPs. Would you spread three skills on linos, give a third skill to one of the war dancer, or one skill on the thrower and one on a lino?

I personally would not be tempted with the WD option. I'd go with a kicker, as suggested our Whalelfman himself earlier, and two wrestlers, which frees the WDs. The three skills can help me save WE lives.

With 75 SPPs or so I can easily spread 11 skills. Stacking on WDs would have given me 4 (or 5 with 31+51=82 SPPs). I duly submit that 11 skills is objectively better, even for Woodies.

One could reply: but what would you do with the next 75 SPPs? Answer: I would replace the dying players. No need to feed War Dancers who skill more often than they sneeze. After the first three, every normal skill comes with diminishing returns. I'd rather roll more skill rolls and hope to get stats. Then I could stack within the 4-5-6 special players I have, and the random Boy that Got Talent.

(*) For the literal minded: I suppose a player can make one or two SPPs in 15 games. I know that I can't divide 32 by 5.

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Last edited by thoralf on Apr 08, 2018 - 17:42; edited 2 times in total
Balle2000



Joined: Sep 25, 2008

Post   Posted: Apr 07, 2018 - 17:42 Reply with quote Back to top

hi mouse
Mr_Lemon



Joined: Oct 02, 2004

Post   Posted: Apr 07, 2018 - 20:54 Reply with quote Back to top

Verminardo wrote:
Yeah Block Zombies are much better than most coaches realize.


And I would say Wredtle Zombies are even better! But I agree, Zombies are amazing linemen!
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