lawofthewest
Joined: Nov 09, 2017
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 Posted:
Apr 17, 2018 - 19:32 |
 
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| ArrestedDevelopment wrote: | | lawofthewest wrote: |
2) Piling on is not quite gone - you can hire a Merc with the piling on skill |
is bug, has been reported as a bug, if you do so you're exploiting a bug  |
this is getting boring now. Why not just remove the bug if it's known? and now I will wait for the haters saying "YOU ARE DEMANDING TOO MUCH! IT'S A FREE SITE! etc." |
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ArrestedDevelopment
Joined: Sep 14, 2015
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Apr 17, 2018 - 20:00 |
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ZZZZZZZzzzzzzzzzzzz |
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harvestmouse
Joined: May 13, 2007
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Apr 17, 2018 - 20:18 |
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Regarding Secret League:
Secret League started out as a project (with the hope that one day it would be possible to play on FUMBBL). The reason it was called Secret League (I think) was because the pages were in the FUMBBL help section, but not made available to everybody. So if you came across it, keep it a secret!
The premise behind secret league (not a fan of the name personally) was 3 fold.
* To introduce alternative rosters like the back of Warhammer Army lists.
* To introduce races and nations that were living in the Warhammer universe.
* To flesh out the fluff availble in the BB universe and make playable rosters from it.
As to which there was no limit to the rosters that could be or would be created. There was never a goal to make rosters massively different and original. The rosters were primarily fluff based.
Then somewhere down the line Garion had the sight (or maybe he always had the vision) to make what is Secret League. An immense amount of work and vision.
Regarding Secret League/Stunty League:
Secret League was never intended or was it hoped that it would take over from Stunty. Roster design, game plays and goals are different. Secret League roster design followed the design protocol and player description of the main game (or it did when I was doing the rosters). Stunty is totally different. Rosters are designed to be new, different and do not follow strict describing rules.
You can see this for example where there is a Secret League and Stunty League roster that is named the same (Pygmy for example). Another would be the design for Clan Moulder. In Secret League I wanted to keep it a big guy/stunty team like Flings and Gobbos. However the Clan Moulder we wanted to design for Stunty leeg would have had giant rats, and a G access slave master....more variety and chaos.
However with the success of Secret League it has meant that Stunty is quite poorly. You'll have to ask Christer about what will be done with Stunty. However what I was told is that it doesn't have much of a future unless the tournament scene kicks off again.
Regarding rosters outside of CRP:
There are 5 rosters that fall outside of CRP but are NAF approved or semi approved.
Chaos Pact, Underworld and Slann are all Galak's nod to 2nd edition BB.
Chaos Pact and Underworld are based off of a team list for 2 teams Chaos Allstars and Underworld Creepers. Neither had a playable roster, just a team list and their positions.
Slann is based off of the 2nd edition Slann list. This is the only roster that has been left untouched since 2nd edition. At some point in the mid 90s GW decided they'd gone over the top with humanoid animals (beastmen, skaven, slann) and needed to tone it down a bit. Furthermore Slann were never really popular. The 40k minis were almost impossible to get. Warhammer they were really expensive to buy and hard to get. BB never had any miniatures. There was also the opportunity to cash in on the Jurassic World movies. So....Slann as they were (old one decedents/old one assistants) were completely eradicated from the fluff and replaced with Lizardmen. The big fat mage being the only nod to Slanns' previous existence. As they have been eradicated, the race does not exist in the GW universe. Therefore GW refuse to give any backing to the rosters use. It's a really good roster though, and really well translated by Galak from 2nd ed. So due to its popularity Cyanide have replaced the roster (keeping the stats) with the cringe worthy Kislev Circus. Possibly for me the worst idea ever to hit BB.
Underworld and Chaos Pact however keep their places due to having existence in the GW universe. However a name change for Pact and an added Orc. The Orc was never in the original Chaos Allstars roster. So should it have been added? This brings me to my key point should designers who are unaware of the original premise be allowed to make key changes? Whomever decided to add the Orc, were they aware of the roster's significance and what altering it has done?
Regarding Khorne & Bretonnian and roster design
I thought I read the comment 'bonafide' when regarding the Khorne and Bretonnian rosters. I can't find it now, maybe it was removed. I'd like to know what is 'bonafide' about either of these rosters?
Is it that they have been playtested well?
Roster design:
If you've played a lot and have a good understanding of the game. Designing roster isn't rocket science. Especially if you do what they did with Brets and Khornes and aim for somewhere just in the bottom half of the roster list. Once the rules are established there isn't that much that can go wrong.
So why are they bonafide? Because they were approved by NAF members vote? the below is rewritten after reading purplegoo's post.
I feel each BB community has different characteristics and strengths (and weaknesses). The NAF membership (in general not a whole) I see as a different fish than other groups of the hobby. I see the NAF membership as keenly interested in the mechanics of the game and a large percentage care less about the fluff of the universe. Unless they have been around a very long time, a large percentage of NAF members aren't too aware of the history or the rosters. Yet their votes count as much as one that has. So without a full understanding of all the issues, why were they given the vote? It feels similar to Brexit. Why the **** give such a significant vote to a bunch of monkeys that have no idea whether staying or leaving would be better or the ramifications. I certainly don't know now whether it's going to be better to stay or go....but the rest of the population did? Democracy is cool, but only when voters know the full ramifications. Keep it to the educated that have a good awareness in my opinion.
So we now have this snowball effect. Prominent interneters great at self promotion feed us lists. Cyanide pick it up and run with it. Then NAF approve the lists. Now there's a clamouring for FUMBBL to follow suit and finally putting pressure on GW to make the lists official.
Cyanide have proven several times they really don't understand the depth of the community. I mean Khorne was such a bad idea..........why Khorne....the god of killing and murder in a game that's suffering from CPOMB. The stupidity of the roster choice staggering and naive. They then came up with a roster that would have been ridiculous so gave the job to a group of well known internet personalities to do a better job. However wait.......there were several stipulations on the roster. It couldn't do this...........It couldn't have that. So what you ended up with was a roster that yes is fun and plays pretty well (however as I said doing that isn't rocket science). Yet it's massively compromised. The creature description is awful; it's not a killy roster that Khorne screams to be; it doesn't have any special demon rules (because cyanide couldn't be assed to code special rules) that really would have made it novel.
It was a bodge job from the start.
Then we have Bretonnians. Now Plasmoid works very hard with the community and Blood Bowl. However for me his roster describing and objectives are poor. Apart from working hard the other thing he is exceptional at is promoting and advertising his work. My argument to him is that he has sympathy to how BB has been described in the past and his reasoning for describing is far fetched.
For example the lino on the Bret team. According to the author fend was added to replicate begging and avoiding being slapped. Was it really? Or was it really added because it was a new skill that hasn't been added to a roster before and makes the team novel? plasmoid has stated in the past that he feels all new teams should bring something new to the table. I feel the describing is concocted and doesn't fit with previous rosters. Show me a roster in the past where the linemen position has a new skill added that hasn't been described by a similar creature or isn't the theme of the whole roster? There isn't a roster like this.
We then get a semi lineman with S access and low and behold another of the new skills added! And a blitzer that doesn't get S access. For me it's just a description mess with know real reasoning other than to be different. It's then given to Cyanide who play about with the names and it becomes even more muddled and poorly described.
I feel starting from scratch. Giving new special rules. Describing players with sympathy to what the creatures you are trying to describe you could make everybody happy. Those wanting something balanced; those wanting something new and novel; those wanting something that follows previous description; those wanting the positions to describe the creatures they're attempting to describe.
So..........what can we learn from this and all of those above that have had success. Work hard for sure. Get well known. Publicize yourself and your work at every opportunity. Put it in a place where it can get played and play tested.
Then the world's your oyster no matter how good it is. |
Last edited by harvestmouse on %b %17, %2018 - %23:%Apr; edited 1 time in total |
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ArrestedDevelopment
Joined: Sep 14, 2015
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Apr 17, 2018 - 20:33 |
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Well, HM, the orc was supposedly to "allow the creation of mongrel horde-like rosters" from something i've seen elsewhere (whether this gets me 4+ big guys is another matter...). |
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Jim_Fear
Joined: May 02, 2014
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| Posted:
Apr 17, 2018 - 20:37 |
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*hugs harvestmouse*
We've missed you here on the forums. |
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harvestmouse
Joined: May 13, 2007
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Apr 17, 2018 - 20:46 |
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| ArrestedDevelopment wrote: | | Well, HM, the orc was supposedly to "allow the creation of mongrel horde-like rosters" from something i've seen elsewhere (whether this gets me 4+ big guys is another matter...). |
That's interesting. Mongrel Horde was just a picture and a description. In the picture was a goblin, a human, an orc, an elf (elven union style) and a skaven. In those days goblins, orcs and elves were more susceptible to chaos than now.
A missed opportunity to add 'alternative' lists like at the back of the warhammer army books in my mind. Rather than pollute and muddle a well done adaption. |
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Purplegoo
Joined: Mar 23, 2006
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Apr 17, 2018 - 21:18 |
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I’m not going to comment on all of HM’s mega-post; I agree with bits and I’m not sure I do others. But since I’ve already invested in the thread, I’ll comment about the NAF vote.
I think it’s a really off-base generalisation to characterise the NAF membership as mechanically driven and not caring about the BB universe or the history of fluff of the game. I meet new people all of the time that want to chew my ear off about the majestic 2nd ed. minis or an in-joke in the new rules, harping back to the original fluff. That’s not the stuff in the hobby that I enjoy (and indeed, you probably characterise me fairly, rather than the membership at large!), but I think a far greater percentage of NAF members are knowledgeable and passionate about that stuff (and the broad world of BB in general) than any other large group of Blood Bowlers you’ll find. e.g. FUMBBLers, Cyaniders, TFF-ers.
As for the providence, validity and quality of the two new rosters, well, to each his own on that. I was a prominent ‘no’ voter in the referendum, but the ‘yes’ vote was overwhelming. I think it’s unfair to suggest these people aren’t capable of making a reasonable decision, even if I personally didn’t agree with it. Whether Christer decides to adopt Khorne and Brets is, I think, a totally different question, and one that’s totally up to him. |
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thoralf
Joined: Mar 06, 2008
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| Posted:
Apr 17, 2018 - 21:54 |
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| lawofthewest wrote: | | Why not just remove the bug if it's known? |
You already know the answer to this rhetorical question.
That response, and the bug, should be documented.
Are you up to the task? |
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There is always Sneaky Git. |
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ArrestedDevelopment
Joined: Sep 14, 2015
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Apr 17, 2018 - 22:33 |
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| harvestmouse wrote: | | ArrestedDevelopment wrote: | | Well, HM, the orc was supposedly to "allow the creation of mongrel horde-like rosters" from something i've seen elsewhere (whether this gets me 4+ big guys is another matter...). |
That's interesting. Mongrel Horde was just a picture and a description. In the picture was a goblin, a human, an orc, an elf (elven union style) and a skaven. In those days goblins, orcs and elves were more susceptible to chaos than now.
A missed opportunity to add 'alternative' lists like at the back of the warhammer army books in my mind. Rather than pollute and muddle a well done adaption. |
For sure.
We get an "add-on", which is nice, as someone who likes to play chaos renegades/pact.... but it's pretty far from what could've been a real chance to revamp a roster - giving pact a varational roster of X-Y positionals who show up or not again would've been interesting and unique, and would've let GW put off for a while the conundrum of "how do we keep the Chaos-All stars without having stupid access-roster" for a bit. |
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Seventyone
Joined: Dec 02, 2010
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Apr 17, 2018 - 22:35 |
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ArrestedDevelopment
Joined: Sep 14, 2015
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Apr 17, 2018 - 22:38 |
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| Purplegoo wrote: | | As for the providence, validity and quality of the two new rosters, well, to each his own on that. I was a prominent ‘no’ voter in the referendum, but the ‘yes’ vote was overwhelming. I think it’s unfair to suggest these people aren’t capable of making a reasonable decision, even if I personally didn’t agree with it. Whether Christer decides to adopt Khorne and Brets is, I think, a totally different question, and one that’s totally up to him. |
Sure 'Goo (and i hope you don't mind me 'snipping your post, apologies if you do). As someone who happens to agree with you (on all of the above), there is still just the question of if everyone who even voted knew what they were voting for... and even if they did, did it matter? What we've got is still a bit of a hodgepodge with the NAF and brets/khorne (please, correct me if i'm wrong). I'm sure it will be sorted out in due time either way. |
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koadah
Joined: Mar 30, 2005
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Apr 17, 2018 - 22:46 |
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Purplegoo
Joined: Mar 23, 2006
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Apr 17, 2018 - 22:58 |
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AD - I’m not 100 % sure about what you’re getting at? I think you’re referring to the communication around the referendum when it was held, and I agree, that wasn’t optimal. There was some quite reasonable confusion over what the question meant and what the success criteria was. However, once you’ve taken the temperature of the membership and the feeling is as lopsided as it was, it’s a pretty uncontroversial call to give the vast majority what they want and allow Khorne and Brets to be used and ranked at tournaments. To my mind, it is sorted? Had it been closer, the muddiness over what the exact outcomes of the vote were going to be before we held it would have been more of an issue.
It was before my time, but had I been presented with that result, I would have made the same decision. Again (just to be super-clear before anyone tells me off!): FUMBBL is not the NAF, and I’m not suggesting one should necessarily follow the other. |
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harvestmouse
Joined: May 13, 2007
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Apr 17, 2018 - 23:46 |
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I reread that section. It's hard to portray feelings on these subjects correctly. My intent was something along the lines of:
Europe, Africa, America and Asia all have the 'black squirrel' (made up creature). Essentially it's the same animal however there are differences in each region. The African black squirrel tends to eat more insects than those of other regions; so we can categorize the African black squirrel as preferring insects over other forms of food (when comparing black squirrels). I'm sure there are African black Squirrels that have the exact same diet as those from America, but there are differences between the 2 as a whole.
There are characteristics of the NAF BB community, that are most certainly different to say the GW BB community. Players play in the NAF (here I am focusing on the tourney scene NAF members as that was what was voted on) for a reason and as a community have certain characteristics compared to other communities.
So a large part of the community are mechanically biased. A large part aren't so interested in the fluff side. They're feelings are biased here, I feel the NAF membership have been screaming out for something new....whatever just as long as it's not broken. So I feel the voting was biased towards 'give us something new and unbroken' compared to 'give us something designed for TT with a good foundation of fitting fluff'. For me this isn't right, both aspects need to fit.
And now the NAF have oked it (to an extent) the FUMBBL community that feel the same are shouting out for the 2 rosters to have full validity....hence the snowball effect. |
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Irgy
Joined: Feb 21, 2007
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Apr 18, 2018 - 00:08 |
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Ok thanks everyone, especially Purplegoo, that was exactly the comprehensive explanation I was originally after. Now it all fits together.
So in summary there's chaos because GW have taken us from a world where there's one well defined set of rules, to a world of base rules plus extra rules plus optional rules plus bits and pieces (because that better suits their own business model). So every different group of people playing the game has to decide which set of rules to use and argue about their merits and so on, there's no longer as clear a "just play what everybody else is playing" option.
Edit - and just to be clear I'm not saying that's all necessarily a bad thing, it's just a more chaotic thing. And I'm aware that there's always been optional rules, but in the days of LRB and CRP there was definitely a clearer distinction between the core rules and the optional extras.
Thanks for the explanation of Secret League too, harvestmouse. I have to confess I'm much more interested in mechanics than fluff myself. I do enjoy the fluff, but I just couldn't care less about it being correct. If you design something from scratch, for sure get the mechanics right first and then rationalise the fluff to fit. That said, if I was somehow in charge of rosters I'd sure as heck make sure we get the fluff right because I know a lot of people do care about it and I respect that. This game is in an unusual position of being built on top of an existing setting, so it's harder to rationalise things away. Have you considered including alternative, fluff-corrected rosters for the core teams? That could make it a self-contained universe of alternative, fluff-compliant rosters, a kind of "if we could start again from scratch we'd do this". |
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