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Poll
What to do with the Slann Blitzer?
No changes needed, the skill access makes up for the price.
29%
 29%  [ 44 ]
Discount Blitzer Please.
25%
 25%  [ 39 ]
Exchange diving tackle or jump up for block.
11%
 11%  [ 18 ]
Stop Complaining.
33%
 33%  [ 50 ]
Total Votes : 151


bghandras



Joined: Feb 06, 2011

Post   Posted: May 19, 2018 - 16:35 Reply with quote Back to top

Weresquid wrote:
I do not simply follow the conventional wisdom in building teams, but prefer to rejigger the build gradually until i find something that works. I suspect most coaches do the same. Bb is not mtg, there is no one build that works for every team. Coaching matters more than skill choices, unlike magic where deck building is everything.

I disagree about MtG comparison. And this comes from a guy who has been to 5 worlds championships.
I think you overstate the deckbuilding aspect of magic and understate the teambuilding aspect of bbowl.

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Weresquid



Joined: Mar 25, 2016

Post   Posted: May 19, 2018 - 17:12 Reply with quote Back to top

bghandras wrote:
Weresquid wrote:
I do not simply follow the conventional wisdom in building teams, but prefer to rejigger the build gradually until i find something that works. I suspect most coaches do the same. Bb is not mtg, there is no one build that works for every team. Coaching matters more than skill choices, unlike magic where deck building is everything.

I disagree about MtG comparison. And this comes from a guy who has been to 5 worlds championships.
I think you overstate the deckbuilding aspect of magic and understate the teambuilding aspect of bbowl.

Depends on format and meta, and we can argue about degrees, but build (as opposed to play skill) is much more important in mtg than in bb. My point was simply that the argument “do like the good players” is invalid in bb, because player skill and experience is so important. Magic (at least constructed) was the comparison because you can actually do fairly well by simply copying the best decks.

Edit: of course this changes somewhat in magic at very high levels of play.
thoralf



Joined: Mar 06, 2008

Post   Posted: May 19, 2018 - 17:23 Reply with quote Back to top

Craftnburn wrote:
How so? There is a pretty good comparison to the way that chess players compare ratings like it's representative of their manhood... BB players do the same with their CR/W-L records...

Obviously there is no real comparison between BB and Chess of course... BB is closer to Poker actually!


Chess players should understand that CR is INVALID. Heck, even win rates mean LITTLE. And all I need to prove these claims is CAPS LOCK.

I get your point about ratings, CB. Interestingly, this sociological phenomenon tends to subside the more you climb in the hierarchy. Anything that hinders objectivity needs to be thrown away, I guess.

My favorite comparison is this one: Chess + Backgammon - Seriousness = BB.

Taking BB too srsly is not a GOOD THING.

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mrt1212



Joined: Feb 26, 2013

Post   Posted: May 19, 2018 - 18:38 Reply with quote Back to top

Weresquid wrote:
I do not simply follow the conventional wisdom in building teams, but prefer to rejigger the build gradually until i find something that works. I suspect most coaches do the same. Bb is not mtg, there is no one build that works for every team. Coaching matters more than skill choices, unlike magic where deck building is everything.


I would agree that coaching matters more than skill choices under the condition of satisfying a baseline of team build utility for any given team.

But it is hard to diminish the aspect of BB where the right tools in the right hands is far more dangerous than having a better set of tools in the wrong hands. PeteW theory.
bghandras



Joined: Feb 06, 2011

Post   Posted: May 19, 2018 - 19:16 Reply with quote Back to top

Weresquid wrote:
Magic (at least constructed) was the comparison because you can actually do fairly well by simply copying the best decks.

Edit: of course this changes somewhat in magic at very high levels of play.

You go absolutely nowhere by simply copying a deck. Almost everybody above a decent level would have a plan against most decks, so very few matchup would be manageable without significant coach skill.

And i am absolutely talking about high level.

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DarthPhysicist



Joined: Jun 14, 2015

Post   Posted: May 19, 2018 - 19:28 Reply with quote Back to top

Coaching and choosing skills go hand in hand. A good coach is going to choose good skills and avoid bloaty trash. You can choose good skills and be a bad coach; you just won't make effective use of those skills. If you want to get better though, taking good skills is the first step.

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Weresquid



Joined: Mar 25, 2016

Post   Posted: May 19, 2018 - 19:46 Reply with quote Back to top

mrt1212 wrote:
But it is hard to diminish the aspect of BB where the right tools in the right hands is far more dangerous than having a better set of tools in the wrong hands. PeteW theory.

My entire point, skill versus available tools is enormously important in bb. Unlike many other games where there is usually an optimal move given the tools at your disposal, and choosing the right move is largely a question of learning the known patterns.
Catalyst32



Joined: Jul 14, 2008

Post   Posted: May 19, 2018 - 20:29 Reply with quote Back to top

Harad wrote:
Remember evidence is not the restating of your opinion.
Evidence would be showing me teams where someone had achieved better results with these skill choices than strong coaches with the more conventional choices. If there is sufficient evidence then the view should be accepted. Otherwise we continue with the prevailing theory. Just post links to teams with better records with your skill choices. If nobody has chosen in this way start by demonstrating the comparative effectiveness to your coaching (again science is required).

EDIT - for my evidence I checked the top 10 slann coaches by CR in the box. All use dodge.



To produce the evidence you want the TOP TEN Slann coaches would have to agree to switch to the different method and compare them to there own previous results.

You will tend to find the TOP COACHES of ANY Race tend to be the TOP COACHES of the game. It's not as if happygrue is great at Slann and total crap at everything else. He may be bad a SOME other rosters or maybe he has not tried some of them. But he is still a TOP COACH

So... get on it... convince them to do it. It's your idea.

Skill BIAS keeps too many coaches away from EVER choosing Pro. That bias blinds so many to ever considering any different method.
Look at how many threads there are asking for SKILL CHOICE ADVICE. All you see is a never ending stream of conventional wisdom... which translates into most coaches following the "good enough" path.
thoralf



Joined: Mar 06, 2008

Post   Posted: May 19, 2018 - 21:13 Reply with quote Back to top

Who needs Twelve Rules for Life.

My KINGDOM for Twelve Rules for BLOOD BOWL, an antidote to NUFFLE!

Let's make Fumbbl's forums great again!

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bghandras



Joined: Feb 06, 2011

Post   Posted: May 19, 2018 - 21:31 Reply with quote Back to top

Even though i agree that groupthink lessens creativity, and sure i saw a lot of instances when groupthink gave subpar suggestion...
...Well, linear logic is there, so we dont need to test everything, in every possible way. It is also there to determine if a group of statements are the same, or not. I dont feel like a grand experiment is needed to conclude on this one.

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Harad



Joined: May 11, 2014

Post   Posted: May 19, 2018 - 21:47 Reply with quote Back to top

I don’t know why I try Smile I give up. It’s not for me to try to change opinion as I don’t believe the views being proffered. As previously stated, if you really believe this test it yourself first in a demonstrable way. If it is better, others will follow.
DarthPhysicist



Joined: Jun 14, 2015

Post   Posted: May 19, 2018 - 23:27 Reply with quote Back to top

Catalyst32 wrote:

Skill BIAS keeps too many coaches away from EVER choosing Pro.


Skill bias and just good old common sense...

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JackassRampant



Joined: Feb 26, 2011

Post   Posted: May 19, 2018 - 23:54 Reply with quote Back to top

I take Pro.

I take Pro on POMBers where such a thing still exists and I don't want Frenzy.
I take Pro on AG4 linemen, preferably as a late skill.
I take Pro on hitter linemen, as a late skill. Block, Mighty Blow, Tackle, Pro, Dauntless on a Human Lineman? Yes, please.
I take Pro after Dauntless or Jump Up.
I take Pro on Vampires, because of Bloodlust and Hypnotic Gaze.
I don't often take Bigs, but when I do, I give them Pro as a second double, to deal with anti-skills and double-skulls.
I take Pro after Leap sometimes, so I could see it on a Slann player or two.
Pro's not terrible, just situational.

It's not a good excuse for not taking Dodge.

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Weresquid



Joined: Mar 25, 2016

Post   Posted: May 20, 2018 - 02:23 Reply with quote Back to top

bghandras wrote:
Weresquid wrote:
Magic (at least constructed) was the comparison because you can actually do fairly well by simply copying the best decks.

Edit: of course this changes somewhat in magic at very high levels of play.

You go absolutely nowhere by simply copying a deck. Almost everybody above a decent level would have a plan against most decks, so very few matchup would be manageable without significant coach skill.

And i am absolutely talking about high level.

You would counter another players deck by reading the meta and building a solid sideboard. Neither has much to do with what you do on the table, its all about build.
mrt1212



Joined: Feb 26, 2013

Post   Posted: May 20, 2018 - 05:03 Reply with quote Back to top

DarthPhysicist wrote:
Catalyst32 wrote:

Skill BIAS keeps too many coaches away from EVER choosing Pro.


Skill bias and just good old common sense...


I just can't believe he keeps misspelling Shadowing like that.
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