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Poll
What to do with the Slann Blitzer?
No changes needed, the skill access makes up for the price.
29%
 29%  [ 44 ]
Discount Blitzer Please.
25%
 25%  [ 39 ]
Exchange diving tackle or jump up for block.
11%
 11%  [ 18 ]
Stop Complaining.
33%
 33%  [ 50 ]
Total Votes : 151


garyt1



Joined: Mar 12, 2011

Post   Posted: May 10, 2018 - 21:05 Reply with quote Back to top

harvestmouse wrote:
The slann niche was oddball but a superior being. so core skills go against there nature. They descended from aliens afterall. It does kind of feel like theyre are paying for their skill access though, which shouldnt be the case.

Surely having lots of normal skill access is worth a cost. You save on not using doubles later.

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happygrue



Joined: Oct 15, 2010

Post   Posted: May 10, 2018 - 21:15 Reply with quote Back to top

Malmir wrote:
Slann are awesome. Such fun to play. Once my period of mourning ends for my lost str4 ag4 blitzer, I'll be back playing them again. Blitzers are awesome btw and jump up and diving tackle are actually very useful though I wouldn't take them through choice so to have them 'free' is very helpful. Bit like thick skull on dwarves.


Welcome to the dark side. Wink

EDIT (to no one in particular): For better or worse, the skill access and statline is what you are paying for in buying a blitzer. +ag is twice as likely as +st, and costs 10K less. Look at a +st catcher vs a +ag blitzer and it's not even close as to which you'd rather have. If you do the math on your favorite elf blitzers with a stat or two and some doubles, slann blitzers come out pretty well at 3-4 skills. And can actually be straight up better and cheaper than some great "not over-priced" players on the top teams.

On the flip side, the blitzers are expensive enough to be a drain at lower TV, and they are hard to skill at higher TV. Replacing players on a crippled team can be a very unfun process for Slann. Having them 10K cheaper would not change things too much overall IMO. They are still going to be a really freaking expensive team.

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thoralf



Joined: Mar 06, 2008

Post   Posted: May 10, 2018 - 22:24 Reply with quote Back to top

MattDakka wrote:

I never said that Diving Tackle and Jump Up are useless


You asked:

MattDakka wrote:
who cares if they have Diving Tackle and Jump Up


and got served, even it's a bit irrelevant to someone who abides by WWUPS, which is a more rigorous test:

What Would Uncle Pytthr Say?

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There is always Sneaky Git.
Matthueycamo



Joined: May 16, 2014

Post   Posted: May 10, 2018 - 23:47 Reply with quote Back to top

What you pay for is GSA, you have a 0-4 position you can easily develop multiple ways to have a tool for everything without doubles. That is awesome. Lets just take Mr average Human Blitzer, 7338 GS Block. So at 31spp you can have Block guard MB or Blodge SS either one is better at their role than a Human Blitzer who is the engine room of the Human team. For 20k more.

For the defensive side you got to first off get very lucky to be as good and you need 4 doubles in a row. Slann blitzer a blodge ss is 170k, a Human blitzer for the same is 210k and 4 doubles? Seriously unlikely. If you want a bash blitzer I think jump up has relevance here even without PO anymore it's very useful for bashing. But solid human bash blitzer tackle MB guard is 150k a slann one 190k but you get jump up which might not be worth as much as before but it has some value and DT always has value as well. Harder to put a number on this but even if you just said 10k each that makes the difference in value only 20k. That's just the two sort of main route you might go down as slann but there are plenty of other variations you might go for and with up to 4 of them and the GAS you can do whatever you want and have the tool for any play. Get a stat and you are laughing. None of that includes occasions where leap VLL becomes useful as well.

Teams need to start out different and end different to be interesting slann just have a higher accessibility level to most other teams. But for a good coach with a developed team they can be dynamite and quite often a beauty to spectate.

To be honest talking it through to myself they seem a little under costed compared to Human blitzers. HELP HUMANS 2018!

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awambawamb



Joined: Feb 17, 2008

Post   Posted: May 11, 2018 - 00:11 Reply with quote Back to top

LEAP.
it's a nightmare to defend aginst a couple of wardancers, fire and brimstone to defend against a team that can materialize almost everywhere on a 3+ OR BETTER.

stomp all frogs

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MattDakka



Joined: Oct 09, 2007

Post   Posted: May 11, 2018 - 14:30 Reply with quote Back to top

thoralf wrote:
MattDakka wrote:

I never said that Diving Tackle and Jump Up are useless


You asked:

MattDakka wrote:
who cares if they have Diving Tackle and Jump Up


and got served, even it's a bit irrelevant to someone who abides by WWUPS, which is a more rigorous test:

Again, I didn't say that Diving Tackle and Jump Up are useless.
My point is Wrestle or Block (Blitzer core skills) have a greater priority over Jump Up and Diving Tackle(useful skills but secondary for a Blitzer who is supposed to blitz/block), especially on a team totally lacking blocking skills.
Diving Tackle on an unskilled expensive player with no Blodge is not so great.
The Diving Tackler can be quite easily blitzed/blocked away (no ST 4, no Stand Firm).
He needs at least Blodge and/or Side Step/Stand Firm to fully use Diving Tackle.
Sure, you can use rookie Blitzers to mark opponent players already marked by other Slann team mates, but that is generally a recipe for getting hurt, unless you are playing vs not bashy teams (not the majority according to my experience).
Jump Up is nice to have but again I would not trade it with Block/Wrestle.
Compare a hypotetical Slann Blitzer starting with either Block/Wrestle out of the box (and without Jump Up and Diving Tackle) but blodged at 6 SPPs to the current Swiss-Army-knife-without-the-knife Slann Blitzer that requires 16 SPPs (and has to survive until 16 SPPs) before being Blodger, and, even when Blodger, he doesn't have Side Step or Stand Firm yet to be really useful with Diving Tackle.
The Block/Wrestle Blitzer would be way better in my book, easier to skill up, easier to protect, more survivable and easier to replace.
happygrue



Joined: Oct 15, 2010

Post   Posted: May 11, 2018 - 15:00 Reply with quote Back to top

The single best thing about the Slann roster is how there is no single "right" way to start or play them. Very successful coaches take wildly different paths. Part of that is because the trade-offs and flexibility allow for such. For example, do you put wrestle or block on your first blitzer? Or do you take a blitzer at all to start?

The roster is genius because it is so open-ended. They are challenging, but they have so many options!

If you remove the fun parts and just make them block (or wrestle) then they become a human blitzer that happens to have leap. Way more boring.

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MattDakka



Joined: Oct 09, 2007

Post   Posted: May 11, 2018 - 16:01 Reply with quote Back to top

happygrue wrote:

If you remove the fun parts and just make them block (or wrestle) then they become a human blitzer that happens to have leap. Way more boring.

Then give the Slann Blitzers starting Dodge, still better than Diving Tackle or Jump Up (although a Blitzer is supposed to have a blocking skill, this is why I suggested either starting Block or Wrestle).
Anyway, Humans Blitzers don't have Wrestle, Leap, Very Long Legs and don't have A access, so they are already different enough.
They would be enough different from Human Blitzers with starting Wrestle and Leap + A access.
For sure, sooner or later Blitzers are going to take Block/Wrestle, so it's better to have it as starting skill (thus freeing a skill slot) and let people to customize them by using the G,S,A access.
That way Blitzers would still be different enough but more efficient and easier to skill.
I found very frustrating to replace Blitzers, not just for their high cost, but because they are not reliable when they are rookie as well.
Lack of blocking reliability for a Blitzer is bad and illogical.


Last edited by MattDakka on May 11, 2018 - 16:19; edited 4 times in total
HebeFeelya



Joined: Oct 01, 2016

Post   Posted: May 11, 2018 - 16:08 Reply with quote Back to top

Honestly, my biggest gripe, is the fact that they are 110K. The number just bothers me, a lot more than it should. 100K would be a lot less annoying.
bghandras



Joined: Feb 06, 2011

Post   Posted: May 11, 2018 - 17:55 Reply with quote Back to top

10k discount and they are fine.

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thoralf



Joined: Mar 06, 2008

Post   Posted: May 11, 2018 - 19:22 Reply with quote Back to top

MattDakka wrote:
Again, I didn't say that Diving Tackle and Jump Up are useless.


Of course not. You rhetorically asked

MattDakka wrote:
who cares if they have Diving Tackle and Jump Up


and got served.

Furthermore, GW's pricing scheme is well known. Block and Sneaky Git are worth the same, whether you like it or not.

So your overall argument is invalid - a Slann Blitzer would not be priced more properly with Dodge instead of Jump Up. He'd still be overpriced if that's what you think in the first place.

But yeah, I'll add this other line to Da Book of Dakka.

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There is always Sneaky Git.
MattDakka



Joined: Oct 09, 2007

Post   Posted: May 11, 2018 - 19:39 Reply with quote Back to top

I still don't get what your point is but no problem, I have Bone-head and Thick Skull apparently.
I just hope that I expressed quite clearly my opinions.
thoralf wrote:

So your overall argument is invalid - a Slann Blitzer would not be priced more properly with Dodge instead of Jump Up. He'd still be overpriced if that's what you think in the first place.

I never said that with Dodge they would not be overpriced anymore, but that with Dodge they would be better than now and I was replying to happygrue when he wrote that Slann Blitzers would be boring and not different from Human Blitzers.
If I could I would give either Block or Wrestle to the Slann Blitzers, swapping it with Jump Up or Diving Tackle (or both if needed) to keep the price reasonable (Slann Blitzers really need to be cheaper, so you could build them better by choosing skills you need more according to the stats they get and to keep the team at a reasonable TV even with some stats).
This is what they need more in my opinion.
The second possibility is keeping as they are, but dropping the price.
The problem is rebuilding them as Blitzers (a Blitzer needs a blocking skill): it takes more games and in the process they are not reliable as rookies, and they risk to get hurt more than a player starting with Wrestle/Block, especially because after 1 skill up they would be Wrodgers/Blodgers and that Wrestle/Block are too important skills to be skipped (not by coincidence they are the first skills almost every player takes).
Now, since the Slann Blitzers are currently overpriced I would be fine with both the solutions because both would be an improvement, but in my opinion starting Wrestle/Block would be better than dropping the price by 10,000.
Weresquid



Joined: Mar 25, 2016

Post   Posted: May 11, 2018 - 23:56 Reply with quote Back to top

1: Slann blitzers are too expensive, should be discounted maybe.

2: Slann blitzers should start with some blocking skills. Swap JU for Wrestle or something.

3: Slann blitzers are fine and good and stop being dumb.

4: Banter

5: goto 1
thoralf



Joined: Mar 06, 2008

Post   Posted: May 12, 2018 - 00:39 Reply with quote Back to top

Oh, Matt. My point is quite simple: asking "who cares about" usually translates into "nobody cares about," which is not very far from saying it's of no relevance whatsoever, thus useless.

A larger point would be to question this assumption:

MattDakka wrote:
Now, since the Slann Blitzers are currently overpriced


According to what price structure?

Slann blitzers are 110K. Menz blitzers and Norse berserkers are 90K, DE and HE blitzers are 100K, PE sidesteppers are 110K, Wolves and WDs are 120K, and Cows are 130K.

Why would a 7338 with Leap, VLL, JU and DT have 100K, again?

Even if blitzers were overpriced, considering that linos come at 60K for leap and VLL, the overall roster pricing might be perfectly fine.

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Last edited by thoralf on May 12, 2018 - 03:35; edited 1 time in total
mrt1212



Joined: Feb 26, 2013

Post   Posted: May 12, 2018 - 00:55 Reply with quote Back to top

I have an idea for a tourney that involves bidding on players to join your squad in an auction format. Might help people get a new perspective on value Wink
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