FUMBBL :: Online Blood Bowl League

thoralf

Joined: Mar 06, 2008

Posted: May 12, 2018 - 18:20

I count five "but" in your analysis, Matt. Chaos, but. Nurgz, but. Lizzies, but. Pact, but. Vamps, but. Your "but 4ST" fails to take Orcs into account.

I hope you now realize that your beef is related to the Slann design, and that this is not really related to pricing.

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MattDakka

Joined: Oct 09, 2007

Posted: May 12, 2018 - 18:31

thoralf wrote:

I count five "but" in your analysis, Matt. Chaos, but. Nurgz, but. Lizzies, but. Pact, but. Vamps, but. Your "but 4ST" fails to take Orcs into account.

I hope you now realize that your beef is related to the Slann design, and that this is not really related to pricing.

Chaos has better development than Slann;
Nurgle has better development than Slann;
Lizzies is a Yin Yang team, ST 4 players by design can't have starting Block, and ST 2 Stunty don't have Block either;
Pact is a hybrid/bash team with 2 Big Guys, Clawmb access, 1 ag 4 ball handler, ttm option, all these things make up for lack of Block, Slann have Leap and a skill to proxy AG 4 for the Leap but that's all;
Vampires are another Yin Yang team, and again ST 4 AG 4 players can't have starting Block (but they have GSA and Hypno Gaze), while thralls are just linemen and bad;
Orcs have 4 ST 3 Blitzers with Block and 4 ST 4 BoBs that can't have Block according to team creation rules.

thoralf

Joined: Mar 06, 2008

Posted: May 12, 2018 - 19:36

Moar proof by assertion, Matt. That's not analysis. An analysis would take the prices of all blitzers and try to find a rationale.

Perhaps some anecdata would help. Take a look at the Green Ball Attackers. Now, take a look at their record:

Quote:

Season 9: 12-0-2 (NFC North Champions); Post Season: 0-1.
Season 10: 10-2-2 (NFC North Champions); Post Season: 3-0, Super Bowl X Champs!
Season 11: 10-1-3 (NFC North Champions); Post Season: 1-1.
Season 12: 7-5-2 (NFC North Champions); Post Season: 1-1.
Season 13: 9-3-2 (NFC North Champions); Post Season: 3-0, Super Bowl XIII Champs!
Season 14: 10-2-2 (NFC North Champions); Post Season: 0-1.
Season 15: 9-4-1 (NFC North Champions); Post Season: 3-0, Super Bowl XV Champs!
Season 16: 10-2-2 (NFC North Champions); Post Season: 2-1, lost Super Bowl XVI
Season 17: 12-1-1 (NFC North Champions); Post Season: 3-0, Super Bowl XVII Champs!
Season 18: 6-2-6 (Oof!)
Season 19: 9-3-2 (NFC North Champions); Post Season: 3-0, Super Bowl XIX Champs!
Season 20: 1-0-0

The NBFL teams are not too shabby. Pray tell how Chaos and Nurgle have better development than that. Alternatively, you can go back to "but Box."

Judgments without arguments are boring.

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MattDakka

Joined: Oct 09, 2007

Posted: May 12, 2018 - 21:21

We should try a Green Ball Attackers roster with properly designed Blitzers to make a win rate % comparison with the above Green Ball Attackers.
My theory is that with Wrestle/Block Slann would have a better win rate and I explained that with Wrestle/Block the Slann Blitzers would be protected sooner and more efficient as ball sackers as rookie as well, this is not a "judgment without argument" but it's a logical and well explained argument.
I think that judging a Blitzer (a player that for definition is supposed to blitz and block) by his lack of Block/Wrestle is not a "judgement without argument" but it's based on a clear fact.

thoralf

Joined: Mar 06, 2008

Posted: May 12, 2018 - 22:54

MattDakka wrote:

We should try a Green Ball Attackers roster with properly designed Blitzers to make a win rate % comparison with the above Green Ball Attackers.

Not really, Matt. That Block is a better skill than JU or DT has never been in dispute. As I said in another thread, Block is Evil. (H/T PurpleChest.)

The test you're proposing would only be relevant if we'd wish to adjust the Slann roster to improve its win rate. As Mr. T tells you at least once a month (paraphrasing), BB team design isn't really about getting an ideal win rate. It's about getting a good variety of interesting teams to play.

Here would be a more relevant test. Create a Slann roster with blitzer with Block in League. Offer people the choice to play this Slann version or similar teams, say Menz. See what happens.

If everyone chooses Slann over Menz (say), it means you created an OP roster. That would not be a good thing. If that's the case, and I think it is, I predict you'll end up doing a comparative analysis of the various BB blitzers.

Why would you play Menz when you can have better blitzer, better catchers, better linos, and a better big guy with Slann?

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Weresquid

Joined: Mar 25, 2016

Posted: May 13, 2018 - 01:00

What about the catcher? Is diving catch on ag4 bs? If yes, is that a problem? Is st2 with no dodge a problem? Why/why not?

mrt1212

Joined: Feb 26, 2013

Posted: May 13, 2018 - 01:18

Weresquid wrote:

What about the catcher? Is diving catch on ag4 bs? If yes, is that a problem? Is st2 with no dodge a problem? Why/why not?

Diving catch, in my estimation is fluff to the nth degree. Its kinda BS, yes but...

Overall the catchers are machines and the fundamental backbone of many Slann teams, especially at low TV where they do all the turnover risk actions on a 2+

mrt1212

Joined: Feb 26, 2013

Posted: May 13, 2018 - 01:26

MattDakka wrote:

We should try a Green Ball Attackers roster with properly designed Blitzers to make a win rate % comparison with the above Green Ball Attackers.
My theory is that with Wrestle/Block Slann would have a better win rate and I explained that with Wrestle/Block the Slann Blitzers would be protected sooner and more efficient as ball sackers as rookie as well, this is not a "judgment without argument" but it's a logical and well explained argument.
I think that judging a Blitzer (a player that for definition is supposed to blitz and block) by his lack of Block/Wrestle is not a "judgement without argument" but it's based on a clear fact.

Wait, this is all rooted semantic/definition/schema/congruency issue?

This does not surprise me at all.

Lets try an alternative approach where youre not trying to jam Slann into a Human schema and start from there. Instead of trying to find analogs to base your analysis on, consider their utility mesh with the team at various TVs and with anywhere from 1 to 5 skills.

What if they were named Toad Bosses or Slann Safeties?

thoralf

Joined: Mar 06, 2008

Posted: May 13, 2018 - 02:56

Weresquid wrote:

Is st2 with no dodge a problem? Why/why not?

Leap on a 2+ means it's really hard not to get Dodge after a game or two. Then Leap on a 2+ and Dodge on a 2+ makes him a threat.

Real problem is that he's an SPP hog, which means your blitzers don't get Blodge fast enough.

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mrt1212

Joined: Feb 26, 2013

Posted: May 13, 2018 - 03:19

thoralf wrote:

Weresquid wrote:

Is st2 with no dodge a problem? Why/why not?

Leap on a 2+ means it's really hard not to get Dodge after a game or two. Then Leap on a 2+ and Dodge on a 2+ makes him a threat.

Real problem is that he's an SPP hog, which means your blitzers don't get Blodge fast enough.

Bingo, although im curious about Blodge Slann Blitzers when onboarding rookies to a mature team. Like, is Blodge priority still or...something else?

Man, y'all are making me want to dust off the Box Froggies.

Weresquid

Joined: Mar 25, 2016

Posted: May 13, 2018 - 03:26

mrt1212 wrote:

thoralf wrote:

Weresquid wrote:

Is st2 with no dodge a problem? Why/why not?

Leap on a 2+ means it's really hard not to get Dodge after a game or two. Then Leap on a 2+ and Dodge on a 2+ makes him a threat.

Real problem is that he's an SPP hog, which means your blitzers don't get Blodge fast enough.

Bingo, although im curious about Blodge Slann Blitzers when onboarding rookies to a mature team. Like, is Blodge priority still or...something else?

Man, y'all are making me want to dust off the Box Froggies.

Long since i played higher tv frogs (or russian bear tamers), but i like sf or ss before the dodge to make better use of the dt.

And i find the catchers do few of the low tv defensive touchdowns. I have fewer of them early, especially since they break in a stiff breeze, so their job is usually to pick up the ball after a sack and pass to a player in scoring position.

mrt1212

Joined: Feb 26, 2013

Posted: May 13, 2018 - 03:29

Weresquid wrote:

mrt1212 wrote:

thoralf wrote:

Weresquid wrote:

Is st2 with no dodge a problem? Why/why not?

Leap on a 2+ means it's really hard not to get Dodge after a game or two. Then Leap on a 2+ and Dodge on a 2+ makes him a threat.

Real problem is that he's an SPP hog, which means your blitzers don't get Blodge fast enough.

Bingo, although im curious about Blodge Slann Blitzers when onboarding rookies to a mature team. Like, is Blodge priority still or...something else?

Man, y'all are making me want to dust off the Box Froggies.

Long since i played higher tv frogs (or russian bear tamers), but i like sf or ss before the dodge to make better use of the dt.

And i find the catchers do few of the low tv defensive touchdowns. I have fewer of them early, especially since they break in a stiff breeze, so their job is usually to pick up the ball after a sack and pass to a player in scoring position.

Interesting...I was thinking SS might be a nice 2nd skill for a team with at least one or two mature Slann blitzers. Lord knows I love my SS JU elven linos.

thoralf

Joined: Mar 06, 2008

Posted: May 13, 2018 - 16:26

mrt1212 wrote:

Lord knows I love my SS JU elven linos.

Has there ever been an Elf you did not love, T?

I think there is an old forum thread on Slann builds opposing the American school and the Euros. Am on my tablet now, will link later unless someone else finds it first.

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mrt1212

Joined: Feb 26, 2013

Posted: May 13, 2018 - 18:14

thoralf wrote:

mrt1212 wrote:

Lord knows I love my SS JU elven linos.

Has there ever been an Elf you did not love, T?

I think there is an old forum thread on Slann builds opposing the American school and the Euros. Am on my tablet now, will link later unless someone else finds it first.

Hehe, you got me thoralf, you got me.

Yah, if you can find that thread, thatd be cool.

thoralf

Joined: Mar 06, 2008

Posted: May 13, 2018 - 18:27

Here you go:

Starting Slann

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