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Dscore20



Joined: Aug 17, 2016

Post   Posted: Jul 15, 2018 - 23:38 Reply with quote Back to top

Yes, you read the title right. Just an idea I had where players can make their own decks of cards that replace dice rolling. I'm still testing this, but here are the rules I've come up with so far:

Each player has a customized deck of 30 cards. Each card has a Number result for a 6-sided die, and a block result for a six-sided Blood Bowl Block die. At the start of the game, both players combine their decks of cards to form a single deck of chance containing 60 cards.

At the start of a half, each player draws a number of cards equal to their team re-rolls and place them face-down to the side (WITHOUT looking at them). Whenever a player uses a team re-roll, they will draw one card from the pile that they put to the side. The new card result takes the place of the old one. Call this the “redraw pile”. Players who use a skill re-roll will instead draw from the deck of chance.

Whenever a player rolls a D6 or rolls a block die, they will instead draw a card for each die rolled from the deck of chance. The number on the card is the die result, and the block symbol on the card is the block die result. If the deck ever runs out, simply shuffle all the used cards back into the deck of chance.

It should be noted that you would still use a D8 for all ball scatters and a D16 for all D16-die purposes (there are no cards to replace these dice).
Other than that, most Blood Bowl rules remain the same.

Cards available:
1 | SKULL
1 | PUSH
2 | BOTH DOWN
2 | PUSH
3 | BOTH DOWN
3 | POW/PUSH
4 | POW/PUSH
4 | PUSH
5 | POW
5 | PUSH
6 | POW
6 | SKULL

There are, of course, rules for exactly how many of each card can be placed in the deck (that way, players can't always be successful at everything).
Maximum/Minimum cards in each deck:
Exactly 30 cards in each player’s deck (totalling 60 cards when combined)
MAX 5 of each specific card.
MAX 8 of each card number.
MAX 8 of each card block result.
MIN 2 of each card number.
MIN 2 of each card block result.


I'm not honestly expecting this to get popular or be on Fumbbl or anything, its just an idea that I wanted to get out there and maybe help you spice up your Blood Bowl game!
Let me know what you guys think!

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PeteW



Joined: Aug 05, 2005

Post   Posted: Jul 15, 2018 - 23:57 Reply with quote Back to top

There is an old board game called Settler of Catan, which involved players rolling 2d6 at the start of their turn. People moaned about some numbers coming up more than they 'should' and so the inventors published a deck of cards with distribution correct to the expected probability. (36 in the deck, obviously).

I never played it, but I can see the appeal, although card counted would have had to be discouraged.

I also have thought about playing Bloodbowl with decks of cards. Perhaps two 120 card decks. Each person would have to use their own, otherwise the 'luck' could still be skewed.

Might be fun to try one day!

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Gozer_the_Gozerian



Joined: May 30, 2015

Post   Posted: Jul 16, 2018 - 05:23 Reply with quote Back to top

Ew, gross! This idea makes me very sad.
dolphinandrew



Joined: May 09, 2017

Post   Posted: Jul 16, 2018 - 09:11 Reply with quote Back to top

PeteW wrote:
There is an old board game called Settler of Catan


Ouch. Sad
Jopotzuki



Joined: Oct 07, 2011

Post   Posted: Jul 16, 2018 - 09:30 Reply with quote Back to top

You need more cards and the deck needs to be shuffled more often. Otherwise if I know that there is 1 card left and it is a 1 or skull, it affects my decisions too much.

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datom



Joined: Mar 22, 2017

Post   Posted: Jul 16, 2018 - 09:35 Reply with quote Back to top

Dscore20 wrote:

Let me know what you guys think!


So, I think it would be a very different game, potentially lots of fun. I do think cards are - in some ways - more problematic than dice in a game about risk management.

1) Card-counting. With 60 cards, it absolutely would become a card-counting game - heck, even with 120. This is because the average bloodbowl game has A LOT of dice (armor rolls, injury rolls, blocks, boneheads).

2) Tactics. High-level play would certainly focus to some extent on deck management - if your oppo has a key turn coming up you might want to burn through a good deck by drawing as much as possible, or alternatively basically end turn (if there's 5 cards left and mostly skulls). With the distribution of pows vs numbers, you might choose to dodge more near the end of the deck than block.

3) Randomness. Card-rage might be worse Smile At the minute, every play has the same potential chance of success for every player. With a deck based game, the same play can have different chances of success for every player. I don't think it solves the 'problems' posed by dice (you can still have bad luck in key moments, you can still have a worse set of overall 'cards' than your opponent as the decks are mixed).

4) My understanding is that each player decides on his distribution. There are some teams that can't really survive without a decent number of non-1s. However, there's the weirdness of BB rules. 1s are awful on dodges, great on armor and injury rolls. So what seems like a great elf strategy (deck packed with 3+s) could get them all killed. Or a great dorf strategy (all 1s so no dodging) would lead to no armor breaks etc.

Again, not to say it wouldn't be fun. But it adds a tactical aspect that would favour a memory-based skill at high-level.

For example, in a 120-card deck, there will 20 1s. Even someone with my attention span can count 20 1s. 240? I'm pretty sure I could count 40.

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mister__joshua



Joined: Jun 20, 2007

Post   Posted: Jul 16, 2018 - 12:58
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In general I like card mechanics. Games like Malifaux do it well, where you draw off the deck and have a hand of replacement cards for moments you'd like to influence. Adds a new strategic layer to the game.

I'm not a fan of customised decks though, or of sharing a deck. Each player should have their own deck of standard construction (whatever that is for your game).

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bghandras



Joined: Feb 06, 2011

Post   Posted: Jul 16, 2018 - 13:15 Reply with quote Back to top

If you ever new there is no 6 or 1 on the top of the deck, then it would kill the game. Bbowl is about the old saying: 'ever action succeeds on a 6 no matter how unlikely it seems, and every action fails on a 1 no matter how trivial it seems to be.

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ArthurWynne



Joined: Sep 23, 2015

Post   Posted: Jul 16, 2018 - 13:20 Reply with quote Back to top

mister__joshua wrote:
In general I like card mechanics. Games like Malifaux do it well, where you draw off the deck and have a hand of replacement cards for moments you'd like to influence. Adds a new strategic layer to the game.

I'm not a fan of customised decks though, or of sharing a deck. Each player should have their own deck of standard construction (whatever that is for your game).


Nailed it. I 100% agree.
Kaze



Joined: Mar 22, 2018

Post   Posted: Jul 16, 2018 - 15:16 Reply with quote Back to top

PeteW wrote:
There is an old board game called Settler of Catan, which involved players rolling 2d6 at the start of their turn. People moaned about some numbers coming up more than they 'should' and so the inventors published a deck of cards with distribution correct to the expected probability. (36 in the deck, obviously).

I never played it, but I can see the appeal, although card counted would have had to be discouraged.

I also have thought about playing Bloodbowl with decks of cards. Perhaps two 120 card decks. Each person would have to use their own, otherwise the 'luck' could still be skewed.

Might be fun to try one day!


Catan isnt that old! Okay, kind of is (1995), but it is still loads of fun!
Domfluff



Joined: Dec 23, 2016

Post   Posted: Jul 16, 2018 - 15:59 Reply with quote Back to top

GMT's Combat Commander uses a deck of cards in place of dice. The cards actually do a ton of things, but one of those is that in the bottom right of each card are 2D6 (in different colours), and you draw a card whenever you need to make a "roll".

There are 72 cards in a deck, representing the full 36 options for a 2D6 distribution, twice over. There are also various triggers that force you to shuffle the deck, most commonly whenever a 12 is rolled, or when the deck runs out (there are lots of non-dice roll reasons to draw cards, so you don't automatically hit these triggers).

How does this relate to Blood Bowl? You could easily do precisely the same thing, having a deck of 36 (or 72) cards, with the different die faces on them. You'd presumably want different decks for regular dice and blocking dice (since you don't want one to influence the other), meaning that you'd need at least a 36 card 2D6 deck, and a 216 card Blocking deck, for each player.

The result of this is a warping of probability. Unlike dice, the cards have a memory - from a default deck, the chance of drawing a 12 is 2/72 (1/36), but as soon as the first has been drawn, you're down to 1/71, rather than the 1/36 that you'd have with two real dice. The real upshot is a shift towards the mean - outliers become less likely, so the bell curve is exaggerated.

The other question is - what problem are you trying to solve with this method? Blood Bowl can be a high variance game, and smoothing this out is something which sounds attractive at first glance. The problem with this is that the variance in Blood Bowl is tied very strongly to positioning and the game state in general - getting a turn where every die is a 6 when you're resolving a turn 1 Blitz is likely far less impactful than being a 0-0 on turn 16 and you need some nonsense to scrape in for a win - smoothing out the variance is a reasonably minor effect here.

From the point of view of "wouldn't it be interesting" though, you could say the same thing for a drafting system. In Cyanide's Blood Bowl 1 there was apparently a cheat you could install that would let you see what dice were going to come up next. This meant you could plan to fail at the right times, and therefore to manage your dice efficiently.

The easiest way to simulate this would be to roll a number of D6 and blocking dice in a tray and use those at will - perhaps you could be required to use those dice during a turn, and when the pool runs out you suffer a turnover? Something like that, anyway. You'd have to manage your bad dice and use your good ones effectively.

Interesting? Sure. You're not playing Blood Bowl anymore, obviously, but I can see that being entertaining.
mrt1212



Joined: Feb 26, 2013

Post   Posted: Jul 16, 2018 - 16:59 Reply with quote Back to top

Lunacy.
Jeffro



Joined: Jan 22, 2009

Post   Posted: Jul 16, 2018 - 17:37 Reply with quote Back to top

I count cards like a beast. Anyone that plays Bridge, hearts, etc... they would count cards like a BEAST. Might be fun for some, but would alter the game drastically. Might look like a duck, but would not quack like one.

My own personal opinion, this takes away from one of the most unique - albeit frustrating - aspects of what makes Blood Bowl the game that it is. The random chance of horrible unique failure on your part... and the same random chance of horrible unique failure by your opponent right on the heels of that... it's wonderfully frustrating and beautiful.
garyt1



Joined: Mar 12, 2011

Post   Posted: Jul 16, 2018 - 17:54 Reply with quote Back to top

There is a Blood Bowl card game available. Maybe not what you are thinking of, but worth a look. Blood Bowl itself would be even more niche if you combined card counting with still having miniatures etc.
In terms of having a balanced game your suggestion may be slightly better. But you would need similar teams or there would be even less point in taking stunties etc who need good rolls against a solid opponent.

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Arktoris



Joined: Feb 16, 2004

Post   Posted: Jul 16, 2018 - 18:44 Reply with quote Back to top

no

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