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Poll
What should my Wardancer take?
+MV
75%
 75%  [ 48 ]
Guard
3%
 3%  [ 2 ]
+AV
0%
 0%  [ 0 ]
Something else
21%
 21%  [ 14 ]
Total Votes : 64


JackassRampant



Joined: Feb 26, 2011

Post   Posted: Nov 11, 2018 - 16:15 Reply with quote Back to top

bghandras wrote:
I think woodies are exception, and they generally cant keep up with the attrition other teams bring, so they better not play according the others game. On the other hand at rookish level, a mb makes a huge difference. Its utility will wane as your team grow. But right now it will be very effective.

Format is a big deal here. On one hand, a single Mighty Blow on a highly mobile player usually ends up getting used for blitzing, and for teams that don't live and die by removal blitzing is usually tactical rather than strategic. This means that most opponents will tend to feed their cheaper guys to your Mighty Blow blitzes (the ones who don't will be high AV and just daring you to get into contact: one MB ain't so hot against that). As TV rises, those guys mean less and less in the context of the game, as the opposing team relies on star power (which is not getting hit as much) and has more bench to handle these kinds of losses in future drives.

On the other hand, if you are in a fixed format with a limited pool of opponents (not open R/B gaming, but like divisional leagues or smaller round-robin environments), attrition has a strong tendency to snowball. Mass MB strategies with bash (or even midrange) teams can be very effective over time: just keep chopping wood, and every kill is 2 SPP for you (plus 2 each for all the other Cas it took to get to the kill) and negative-whatever for your rival, so at one point or another you're playing hard TV against their inducement value and you start dominating. Wood Elves can't do this much (like, they're literally the worst possible team to try this game with), so the MB debate mostly hinges around the ability to mitigate losses. However, MB on AG5/Tackle Wardancers is good because they can punch carriers, who tend to be important, valuable, and hard to replace.

Loss mitigation with minimal MB is possible, under the "best defense = good offense" theory: specifically, teams oriented around limited numbers of MB/T can be encouraged to expose the hitters, so you can counter-strike. This is not at all reliable, unless your oppo is Frenzy-dependent, but even top coaches will occasionally let you smack that boy down and perhaps give him the boot.

But is this strategy really good? It might be worth 30k per game at mid-level development, and if your opponent has one MB/T and you take him out on turn 3, it's probably not that bad. But double-both-downs happen, and then you're dodging away from Tackle. Perhaps Wrestle would make a 3rd pick (after Tackle), if you don't double again for Juggernaut. It never really becomes irrelevant: at low TV it works against the midrange and heavy teams who build into some MB/T quickly; these teams tend to be your "natural predators," so coaching skill differentials really affect the viability of this strategy. As you rise through the value ranks, those teams really build too much nasty/support to play that way against, and you end up using this game on lighter squads, who tend to rely on sniping, or on teams like Necromantic that like to hit with easily-exposed Frenzy.

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ArrestedDevelopment



Joined: Sep 14, 2015

Post   Posted: Nov 11, 2018 - 19:50 Reply with quote Back to top

bghandras wrote:
On the other hand at rookish level, a mb makes a huge difference. Its utility will wane as your team grow. But right now it will be very effective.


This was my thinking in recommending MB. At low tv an mb wardancer (later with tackle) is a tactical nuke.

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Meanandugl



Joined: Feb 05, 2013

Post   Posted: Nov 11, 2018 - 22:11 Reply with quote Back to top

+MA. Lke others wrote the extra speed is awesome. And since it's a rookie WD you have 5 more chances to roll another +MA and turn him into a natural oneturner, like this guy
gamelsetlmatch



Joined: Mar 05, 2013

Post   Posted: Nov 12, 2018 - 04:07 Reply with quote Back to top

Juggs and Grab arent too bad of a choice on doubles, even when its 5,5
Unless you have a couple natural OTT ..you're going to need help against Stand Furm and SS

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“In our play we reveal what kind of people we are.”
Rawlf



Joined: Jul 15, 2007

Post   Posted: Nov 12, 2018 - 11:53 Reply with quote Back to top

Sigmar1 wrote:
I get the argument for movement, I really do. But EVERY team needs a good blitzer that has the potential to cause damage and keep numbers relatively even. Even with the Woodies ability to win games down a few (or even many) players, a blitzer that can remove players and keep the numbers close is invaluable.


This, MB for me. At all TVs. MA is nice, MB is important.
Sometimes it is about the numbers (against av7 or stunties). Most of the time it is about sniping key players (tackle blitzer, guard, blodge-ss). Even if both does not work it is much easier to defend with 8 vs 10 than vs 11.

Oneturning is overrated in general and I certainly would not want to waste one of my only 2 blitzers to develop a specialist for such a niche issue. A catcher do that very well.

I disagree with those who say +MA wins more games than MB and would claim the opposite is true.
ArrestedDevelopment



Joined: Sep 14, 2015

Post   Posted: Nov 12, 2018 - 12:30 Reply with quote Back to top

Rawlf wrote:

Oneturning is overrated in general and I certainly would not want to waste one of my only 2 blitzers to develop a specialist for such a niche issue. A catcher do that very well.


Apologies for the truncated post, but this bit is quite key to me.

You get 2 wardancers. They come out the box as pretty much setup to be sackers with two skills, and you obviously can deviate from that to get one sweeper/surfer/killer & one sacker if you want. This means you have two potent ball threats at any time on the pitch, and if you have one with +MA (or even +MA, +MA), you have a player who can threaten the ball from long-range every turn for the entire game.

That threat is much more debilitating to your opponent's efforts to control the momentum and tempo of the match than having a natural ottd wardancer ever will be.

If you take MB on a dancer you can also control tempo a little bit as well, as while you are unlikely to actually out cas your opponent if he's av8+, even few key casualties are enough to swing a game into wood elf hands as an opponent ends up lacking tackle, guard, or even possibly just the numbers to setup a proper defence. The increased chance to actually KO/cas/stun a ballcarrier on a sack attempt isn't something to rely on, but is also a very nice additional bonus.


You also get up to 4 catchers on a wood elf team - just like gutter runners, skinks and every other player people usually attempt to turn into a natural one turner, these are high MA players who are, due to their not-quite-limited availability, somewhat disposable, able to fill multiple roles, and much easier to turn into natural one turners anyway.

If you turn a wardancer into a natural one turner, you have to convert a catcher to fill the role he's left behind - and it's somewhat harder to do that.

But really the reason I'd be against a natural ottd wardancer from the beginning is rather simple - by reducing the sacking/blitzing ability of the team, you're actually increasing the likelihood that you need the one turn.

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JackassRampant



Joined: Feb 26, 2011

Post   Posted: Nov 12, 2018 - 14:47 Reply with quote Back to top

Well, for me +MA isn't primarily about OTS; that's just another feature, you know? I just don't think highly of investing in half-measures when it comes to the attrition war in open environments, and don't see a viable way for a Wood Elf team to double down. So I'm not convinced that one guy with Mighty Blow on an AV7 team with a wicked cost curve is that much of an asset against an unknown field (especially an uncontrollable unknown, like Box). MA9 is a lot better than MA8 on defense, for this player: it's very hard to use space to ward off a MA9 'Dancer, making either a cage or a double-screen a necessity to protect most BCs. Cages and double-screens are in fact viable options in BB, so this isn't an automatic game winner or anything, but it does mean that an opponent will have fewer resources to direct toward the screen, which is where the injuries tend to occur. You wouldn't think that one square would make a huge difference, but it really does, in my experience, especially with a MA6 carrier.

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MenonaLoco



Joined: Jan 05, 2016

Post   Posted: Nov 12, 2018 - 15:51 Reply with quote Back to top

Is it box? Trophy hunt, maybe? Then mb, for those lower tv games can be easy mode fast with 1 or 2 good hits by the elf.

If its not this limited format, but endless box, just take the jug. You want a special player, long term. Go Jug Frenzy and watch those oponents getting desperate without sideline control.
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