mrt1212
Joined: Feb 26, 2013
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 Posted:
Oct 26, 2018 - 00:07 |
 
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So there's been a bit of banter about High Elves here and there - Discord, Fumbbl Cup thread, my dreams...and I thought it'd be nice to set up a thread dedicated to just them.
So the first question as to why High Elves over others -
First lets cross compare them position by position to the other elves then as a whole.
Blitzers: Easily the worst of the group but still good general players to have. Woodies have the complete package in Wardancers from the get go, Eulfs have their Blitzer with inherent Sidestep and only 10k more to purchase over the Helf version and then finally the Dark Elves who have an identical player but twice as many.
Catchers: These are the rainmakers of the High Elves but they are behind their equivalents on Eulfs and Woodies in terms of starting skill. That the Eulfs get NoS inherent and only cost 10k more is another tip of the hat to the fun of the Pro Elves. Woodie catchers start with both Sprint and Dodge but are saddled with St2 and to me this is important as TV climbs.
Why? Because as TV climbs that ST2 becomes the weak point of the roster and there are considerations to be made about fielding more than 3 at a time. No doubt their inherent skills prove very useful but...At a certain point I'd much rather have the ST on a reasonably developed player without Sprint and with Dodge.
Dark Elves don't even have catchers and are exluded. Witches aren't catchers, Runners aren't catchers, Assasins are clearly not catchers. The MA8 and Catch skill are what qualifies it in my book.
Throwers - This is one area where I think the Helfs exclusively shine over their compatriots. Once again, it's hard to include Delfs here just because the Runner lacks Pass and bonafide catchers to throw to. Regardless, I would definitely take the AV8 MA6 Safe Throw @ 90k over MA6 AV7 @70k for Eulfs and MA7 AV7 and 90k for Woodies.
First Safe Throw leverages another skill already inherent on the thrower. Second AV8 gives them a wee bit more hope of developing into something, anything and play them on defense. I've been blessed by Nuffle to keep rolling perfect specimens of Helf Throwers with +AG and Strong Arm so this might never be applicable but being able to hit a 2+ from anywhere on the field with Accurate, +AG and Strong Arm combined with a 2+ roll on Safe Throw for interception attempts is actually kind of huge.
It allows you to get out of jams in novel ways but also do unconventional plays where the chance of an interception (say with Eldril on the board) is significantly reduced. And while we can wax on about whether there is a necessity for elves to pass at all, I say that if you have the perfect players to do it, maybe consider it more because a it is seldom seen and it can be complicated to account for.
While the Eulf Thrower is nice because he starts a full 20k cheaper and has NoS targets all day, I still give the nudge to the guy with Safe Throw and AV8.
I can see why some might fall in love with the MA7 Woodie Thrower but the cost comparison to the Helf doesn't pencil out that much for me. You have pass and passing skills as to not need the additional MA.
Finally we get to Linos and this is where I think Helfs really shine and why they get better with TV. MA6 AV8 @70k which makes them identical to Delfs. But the thing that I think makes Helfs a good long developing team is that if you can develop the linos, and the odds are better with Helfs that you can, you wind up having a pretty good team that can absorb attrition over several games and pick up the slack when one of your Blitzers or even Catchers goes down. I do not feel this is as much of the case with the AV7 linos on other teams because they go down much easier before they can even develop and the overall team composition possibilities put the linos in more danger than the positionals. This isn't to say that you shouldn't try and develop AV7 Linos, it's just less likely you wind up with the utility players you desire over the long term with them. To put it more curtly, you can have a less top heavy and brittle team with High Elves than with the AV7 Elves.
And while I appreciate the 60k cost of the Eulf linos and it makes a difference when fleshing out the initial team, they more than any other lino seem like disposable fodder to keep the real ballers doing their thing. They are mostly not a long term project you can ride into something useful.
In totality, I think that while Helfs are saddled with slightly inferior version of Blitzer and Catcher, both are still inherently 'good' players to have and the MA8 of Catchers alone offsets only having two Blitzers in contrast to the four of the DEs. You never have to pray to roll a 10 on at least one of your Blitzers to get some range on the team. Also, I think the AV8 linos are the thing that really sets them apart as the team grows relative to their cousins with better positional because it can lead to a more dynamic when needed team and a overall balanced team. And I wholly believe that the Helf Thrower is best in show and gives you a lot of ass saving potential and the small side benefit of playing without cowering in fear of trying to finesse a pass just so.
FWIW, I am not claiming that Helfs are the best elf, but they simply resonate more with me and my playstyle. I have a better winning record with both Woodies and Eulfs in Box but...I can't say I enjoy playing either more than a really high TV Helf game. |
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Arktoris
Joined: Feb 16, 2004
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Oct 26, 2018 - 00:38 |
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the vanilla elf team...from which all other elves are compared. |
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Hail to Manowar! The latest charioteer to DIE for bloodbowl! - Slain, by Ghor Oggaz |
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harvestmouse
Joined: May 13, 2007
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Oct 26, 2018 - 12:07 |
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The away icons colour scheme is amazing and the extra shading on the helmets must have been done by some really cool dude. |
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Kondor
Joined: Apr 04, 2008
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Oct 26, 2018 - 13:05 |
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Hey MrT.
As you know, I also prefer using High Elves.
While you explained the differences quite well, I love using them simply for the AV advantage. I took the time to develop an all line elf squad concentrating on Blodge and then diversifying with Side Step, Tackle, Leap, and Kick. For the TV, the team performed extremely well. Think AV8, Ag4 Zons.
At that point the team needed speed so I purchased the blitzers. Add dodge, tackle, and one sure hands.
Only now have I started filling in casualties with Throwers and Catchers. Catchers are amazing but I have become spoiled by AV8. They are targeted by everyone and die quickly as they are the weakest links.
Anyway, High Elves are especially fun if you like building teams without choosing to play exclusive elfball or watch them die. |
Last edited by Kondor on %b %26, %2018 - %13:%Oct; edited 1 time in total |
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DrPoods
Joined: Nov 14, 2013
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Oct 26, 2018 - 13:20 |
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I think Clarksongoo said it best in the Grotty Little Newspaper...
"High Elves (Cool): In the absence of a Ninja or a Pirate Elf team, look no further than the coolest pointy eared guys going. When your girlfriend looks over your shoulder at what you’re doing (drawn in by you swearing at double skulls) and asks; “What on Earth are you doingâ€, you get to say with confidence, a puffed out chest and a song in your heart “I’m Blitzing with my Dragon Warriorâ€.
Phwoar, you sex machine.
Even though GW saw fit to rob us of the sexy names, High Elves still have so many cool things going for them over their pointy eared cousins. They’re a hidden treasure; whilst everyone has a German Dark Elf team, High Elves are much less seen. They’re mysterious and rare like a funny American sitcom. They have a hard start in life too, with so few skills, they’re tricky at low TV. What High Elves are is the race for the dreamer, the perfectionist. They’re never ever ‘finished’; HE always need one more skill. There’s always one Lion Warrior that needs a couple of TDs, one Lino that’s a bit gammy. Even though their snobbish aloofness indicates they might be, perfection is never achieved, but the pursuit of perfection (and what could be more perfect than the perfect High Elf team) is devilishly cool.
Elvis Presley wishes he was a High Elf, and so should all of us. Never fear your foes with a High Elf team; play hard, play fast, and if all else fails, remember you’re the dude."
Absolutely bang on correct. And is exactly how I feel about them. |
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FinnDiesel
Joined: Mar 07, 2018
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Oct 26, 2018 - 17:37 |
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pffft high elves, hahahaa. Enjoy your 'High Elf' friendly zone |
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Jeffro
Joined: Jan 22, 2009
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Oct 26, 2018 - 17:48 |
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I took High Elves to Three Die Brawl in Iowa this past spring - mainly to try and break the game with Bo Gallante. I think Grandma Wendy put him in as a star player to try and boost High Elves at lower TV because, I agree, they tend to shine better as they develop.
Taking them again to Underworld Cup in November, as that tournament builds up 150K in skills between rounds 2, 3, 4 & 5... so decent chance to develop some lineman, the hitter and a catcher (and still have Bo try to score as many as he can before getting killed). I'll let you know how things turn out. |
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fidius
Joined: Jun 17, 2011
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Oct 26, 2018 - 18:20 |
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Upon first read-through of the rules back in 2010, in preparation to roll up my first team, my immediate thought was: "the most important things in this game are AG and AV." Which led me directly to High and Dark Elves. I took Grandma's dated warnings about the complexities of low-TV Dark Elves seriously however, so scratched them off the list. High were still a possibility. But ultimately the fluff was the barrier -- could I roleplay a team of arrogant nobles (such as I knew them through the WFRP universe) and still enjoy myself? I answered, "no." And thus decided on Pro Elves.
mrt's affinity for their passing game is indeed the "correct" way to implement them in my view -- and given the inherent flaws in passing in general, Safe Throw is their secret sauce. Their Lineman advantage is correct as well, but it's hard for me not to think of their development as cheesy -- their value is mainly in the fact that Block and Dodge are so, so good on their AG4/AV8 frames.
High Elves are tricky to develop and win with at first. I think it comes down to while they are collecting Block and Dodge and any remaining positionals, the twink teams are taking Mighty Blow and Tackle. Once they get over the mid-TV hump however, they are formidable. (I bet GW considers this a clever feature of their design, that "High" Elves are best at "high" TV. Sigh.)
And indeed Witches are not Catchers. Witches are Blitzers. Dark Elves have 6 Blitzers. Don't get me started. |
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Rbthma
Joined: Jan 14, 2009
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Oct 26, 2018 - 18:27 |
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Good news, fidius. I too struggled with the fluff-barrier to HE...then found out about Shadow Warriors around which to base my fluff for the BBT team last year.
Great discussion and I'm enjoying hearing you guys debate their pros and cons as I've really played DE the most and one pro-elf team with a smattering of WE here and there |
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Arktoris
Joined: Feb 16, 2004
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Oct 26, 2018 - 21:32 |
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High elves are all about long passes. the thrower is the heart of the team.
In this world there are two types of people, merry-go-round types, and roller coaster types. The merry-go-rounders get nervous when it comes to risk...they want everything calm and safe. The roller coaster types get a thrill from the danger and risk.
high elves lets you enjoy the roller coaster thrill of long bombing the pass 13 squares to a catcher who then dashes into the endzone...but with a pinch of "merry-go-round" by giving you the 8AV over the other "live fast, die hard" elf teams. |
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Hail to Manowar! The latest charioteer to DIE for bloodbowl! - Slain, by Ghor Oggaz |
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mrt1212
Joined: Feb 26, 2013
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Oct 26, 2018 - 22:17 |
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| Kondor wrote: | Hey MrT.
As you know, I also prefer using High Elves.
While you explained the differences quite well, I love using them simply for the AV advantage. I took the time to develop an all line elf squad concentrating on Blodge and then diversifying with Side Step, Tackle, Leap, and Kick. For the TV, the team performed extremely well. Think AV8, Ag4 Zons.
At that point the team needed speed so I purchased the blitzers. Add dodge, tackle, and one sure hands.
Only now have I started filling in casualties with Throwers and Catchers. Catchers are amazing but I have become spoiled by AV8. They are targeted by everyone and die quickly as they are the weakest links.
Anyway, High Elves are especially fun if you like building teams without choosing to play exclusive elfball or watch them die. |
I had a recent period where i was limited to only AV8 players on Coca Loca BBL due to the catchers biting it. The weird thing is that during that time, the Blodge SS MB Tackler Blitzer functioned more in the scoring roles of the team quite capably in fact. Instead of the pass coming at the critical moment to score, the ball was put on the Blitzers asap and then their latent abilities to hold on to the rock and then put the ball on the ground in favorable spots should they get hit was potent in its own right.
It gave me a much higher regard for SS in general but in the current iteration of the team, the catchers are mostly there for defense first and their offensive prowess is kind of just taken for granted as being there.
It's kind of a fun new adventure to have better than solid Blitzers, an ace Thrower and then all these 31 spp or below wrestle catchers who are just looking for the right moments to turn a game. Previously I've mostly had ridiculous statted up catchers do a lot of the heavy lifting on both sides of the ball. |
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JackassRampant
Joined: Feb 26, 2011
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Oct 27, 2018 - 00:03 |
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High Elves are totally my favorite elves. It has nothing to do with agility or passing or any of that. It's the basic starting cost math. I know damn well that everybody talks about their skill deficit, and says this makes them the weakest elf team, but the curve of team development says otherwise. 1M gold lets you buy 2 Blitzers, 1 Catcher, 8 Linemen, 3 Re-Rolls. Sock up for an Apothecary and some Catchers, and your team will immediately start out more reliable than any other elf squad, and stay that way until you develop to the kinds of TVs where successful High Elf styles become taken for granted. You can do Elven Union on 3 re-rolls too, but that AV7, man, it just adds another dimension of unreliability. |
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Verminardo
Joined: Sep 27, 2006
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Oct 27, 2018 - 00:05 |
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On behalf of all the coaches who don't think TV >3000k is normal, I will also add a few words. I like to compare High Elves to Dark Elves because the Linemen and Blitzers are identical. Dark Elves have the advantage of 4 more basic skills in the starting squad, which scales up for quite a while. Your High Elves are still getting Block while Darkies get Dodge, still getting Dodge while Darkies get Side Step, still getting Side Step while Darkies get Diving Tackle, etc. Witches are excellent, even though you could give Frenzy to High Elves early on I don't tend to do it, so Frenzy is what defindes the unique Playstyle of Darkies among all the Elves.
But High Elves have a true passing game. You might not want to rely on throwing the ball too much, but the point is, passing skills on an all AG4 team go a long way. And that extra field of range that the Catchers offer really goes a long way, no pun intended. I have yet to field a High Elf team with four developed Catchers but even with two of them, it makes a conceivable difference.
Of course, this is all very good and well but statistics don't lie about who's tier 1 and who's not.  |
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gamelsetlmatch
Joined: Mar 05, 2013
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Oct 27, 2018 - 00:17 |
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All that needs to be said about High Elves, is..
Nandorins |
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mrt1212
Joined: Feb 26, 2013
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| Posted:
Oct 27, 2018 - 01:35 |
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| Verminardo wrote: | On behalf of all the coaches who don't think TV >3000k is normal, I will also add a few words. I like to compare High Elves to Dark Elves because the Linemen and Blitzers are identical. Dark Elves have the advantage of 4 more basic skills in the starting squad, which scales up for quite a while. Your High Elves are still getting Block while Darkies get Dodge, still getting Dodge while Darkies get Side Step, still getting Side Step while Darkies get Diving Tackle, etc. Witches are excellent, even though you could give Frenzy to High Elves early on I don't tend to do it, so Frenzy is what defindes the unique Playstyle of Darkies among all the Elves.
But High Elves have a true passing game. You might not want to rely on throwing the ball too much, but the point is, passing skills on an all AG4 team go a long way. And that extra field of range that the Catchers offer really goes a long way, no pun intended. I have yet to field a High Elf team with four developed Catchers but even with two of them, it makes a conceivable difference.
Of course, this is all very good and well but statistics don't lie about who's tier 1 and who's not. |
Indeed but I am a curious fellow. I wish we could mine the data more but I would love to see if the following had basis:
1. AV7 Elves have a higher variance of outcome based on positional availability. To test this we would need to comb the database on a per match basis to find perms and MNGs for positional players then compare winrates directly after those games are flagged. e.g. Wood Elves suffer more in games where a Wardancer is permed or MNG than when High Elves or Dark Elves suffer the same on their own Blitzers. You could also qualify this by SPP of the permed or MNG player to seek out breakpoints where that might make a difference.
2. AV7 Elves in fact suffer more positional unavailability than their AV8 heavy brethren. Again, comb the database but in a much simpler way to count averages and standard deviations for all elves by position and perms/mngs suffered then compare each position like to like.
3. High Elves are the most likely over time to gravitate towards higher TV. Mining the data and finding average TV splits by games played.
Just curious if there is some backing to my perception. |
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