BadStorm
Joined: Nov 01, 2014
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 Posted:
Nov 26, 2018 - 11:01 |
 
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Many tournamets give the chance to set a clock for the game and split the time between the choaches, imho this better than 4 minutes rules (we know very well that there are turns of 30s and turns of 8min). So this is my idea: develop this option in Fumbbl especially for the NAF tournament in particular the coaches or the tournament's organiser can set the time that will split equally. This allows to every coach to manage his time and avoid issues with the 4mins rule or very long match!
Let me know your opinion, cheers guys! |
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Harad
Joined: May 11, 2014
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Nov 26, 2018 - 13:53 |
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Well it's not necessarily better or worse, just different.
Time limit is in the extra rules section and is now very softly worded as 'in competition games when it is vital to keep the event moving along a fair pace, many people like to impose a four minute time limit on each player's turn. After four minutes a turnover occurs.'
Of course the commissioner is always allowed to use whatever they like. So Christer could change to what you propose.
My observations would be:
1. I find very few people draw their turns out to four minutes in the '30s' turns you refer to.
2. The suggestion of the four minute turn and its history leads me to a feeling that the spirit of the game is that no turn should be running to the '8min' turns you refer to. But I accept that this personal interpretation and anything that lies outside the strict rules is very much open to debate.
3. I think that in the online format you may have to go for a system which didn't share the clock. I think that some players would use the lion's share of that time and even perhaps do so deliberately to put their opponents under time pressure. This might not be what you intend.
4. Making the change would be material work for someone and therefore I'd want to see that in some way this would be materially better than the status quo and/or any other changes they could be making. I am not convinced but it is not my time that would be required and so my vote counts for nothing  |
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FinnDiesel
Joined: Mar 07, 2018
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Nov 26, 2018 - 14:42 |
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You can set a timer, but it must be a automatic thing. You can also basically disable timeout extra time |
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koadah
Joined: Mar 30, 2005
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Nov 26, 2018 - 14:43 |
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It is a very nice idea.
But... I don't think that enough people would really care enough for it to be worth the effort of implementing.
I doubt that there are really that many 8 minute turns.
In my experience, not many coaches actually press the button. The ones that do will normally warn you first. The others... Well... I guess it is in the rules. |
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extremegrazedknee
Joined: Dec 06, 2008
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Nov 26, 2018 - 16:41 |
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I think time pressure is a reward for good strategy and 4 mins seems to be a decent yardstick. Most commonly if i go over 4 mins its because something has gone substantially better than I expected and extra actions are required to shore up this new position/a rethink of how i want the board to look when my turn is over. I sometimes forget that this puts time at a premium and go over.
Whilst it is preferable to have both coaches make no mistakes, I think human error brought about by opponent's pressure is a preferable or at least equally legitimate influence on the outcome of the game as luck of the dice.
The game is designed to simulate a live action encounter where everything happens at once. I also think the clock simulates that factor in game.
I don't think there's a clear line for when to press timeout. Warning is preferable, but not required. If coaches offer a little latitude that seems fair. 10-20 seconds is different from 1 minute. 1 player moved after 4 mins not the same as 4. Generally if one coach offers space the other follows suit. Certainly all things being equal getting timed out is a sting but one has no right to expect anything different, just as one has no right to expect a coach not to foul if thats their heart's desire.
If people want to set different parameters the best way to do so is to start a league with specific rules regarding such preferences. I don't think there's anything wrong with the site wide conventions which allow for maximum diversity of playing styles. |
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awambawamb
Joined: Feb 17, 2008
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Nov 26, 2018 - 17:16 |
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mistakes are part of the learning process, and bad time management is a mistake. |
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garyt1
Joined: Mar 12, 2011
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Nov 26, 2018 - 17:34 |
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In tabletop 4 minutes is not a long time for a turn. In FUMBBL that gives a good chunk of thinking time as you don't need to do much manual stuff. But still as has been discussed before allowing someone a turn to go over 4 minutes generally will give a better game. It is not really necessary to cause someone to lose a match because they took a while on for example thinking about their key ball carrier move once in a match (has been done to me before though). Not to mention that pausing while away from keyboard would lead to arguments. Of course for some very specific speed tournament with short turns it may suit some.
FUMBBL is somewhat meant to simulate tabletop Bloodbowl. I think clocks on TT tournaments are very rare. You will get people sometimes having games declared unfinished if they take over two and a half hours for example, which is usually due to two slow players. |
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FinnDiesel
Joined: Mar 07, 2018
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Nov 26, 2018 - 18:00 |
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In tabletop you have to work out and roll the dice, but on Fumbbl is automatic which suites the 4 minute turn timer. Everyone is entitled to that time to think and I believe the other coach has the right to timeout as 4 minutes is more than enough. |
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ArrestedDevelopment
Joined: Sep 14, 2015
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Nov 26, 2018 - 19:33 |
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Not sure why this is necessary to be honest. While a chess clock would probably be nice in general, it would alter the strategy of the game somewhat - you are presenting a challenge every single turn and you have 4 minutes to solve/compile that challenge. The very nature of the 4 minute limit is inherent to the strategy of bloodbowl.
There are plenty of coaches on here who would be quite happy (and capable) to spend 8min+ on the opening turns of a game in order to render their opponent helpless in latter stages; while this sort of planning is in some ways admirable, it is actually not something that the game's rules account for; in addition, being able to play within 4 minutes isn't actually a skill - far from it, needing more than the allotted time is a weakness. |
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harvestmouse
Joined: May 13, 2007
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Nov 26, 2018 - 20:05 |
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An 8 minute turn!! I dont think I have ever seen one of those without an afk. I really wouldnt want to either.
That aside I like the OP's point. My natural game is about 2/2.5 min turns with 1 or 2 at around 4.5 minutes. However shouldnt my opponent be rewarded for putting me under pressure?
Then again should time management really be decided by the whims of an opposing coach? Particularly if done incorrectly may or may not violate site rules (never was clear to me even as an admin).
I certainly preffered the old client's way of 4 minutes per turn with a bank of 10 minutes, that shouldnt be overused (i.e. regularly playing 5/6 min turns). Then Auto timeouts. A much cleaner method in my opinion. |
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ArrestedDevelopment
Joined: Sep 14, 2015
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Nov 26, 2018 - 20:13 |
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I've seen a 16min turn. With no disconnection or issues, and it was a legend coach (no not endzone).
I actually only waited so long because i'd played him the night before and he took several 6-8min+ turns and I was interested to see exactly how long he would take. |
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Endzone
Joined: Apr 01, 2008
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Nov 26, 2018 - 20:31 |
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stej
Joined: Jan 05, 2009
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Nov 26, 2018 - 21:16 |
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I think one could have say an extra reserve time bank of 4 mins that would tick down after your 4 mins normal were up but one would have to implement some auto turnover if all the time were used. |
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Endzone
Joined: Apr 01, 2008
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Nov 26, 2018 - 21:28 |
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Now that the 4 min rule has been softened in the official GW rules I think there is a great opportunity for 4 mins to be used as the default but for an alternative turn time to be applied if mutually agreed by the two players. This could potentially be done in Ranked at the point of creating a game and in Box a pop up window could apprear before the game starts asking the players if they want to propose an alternative turn time. Only if both players accept would it be different. I think this would lead to an increase in games with lots of players choosing shorter turn times. The 1 mins games would probably become a big thing! I appreciate this would require some development but if the powers that be agreed with me that it would likely see an increase in games played it may be of interest? |
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ArrestedDevelopment
Joined: Sep 14, 2015
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Nov 26, 2018 - 21:30 |
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The 4min rule remains unchanged i thought?
it's illegal procedure that's been changed but that's a slightly different thing (although people often roll them together) |
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