swahsven
Joined: Jun 02, 2009
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 Posted:
Nov 27, 2018 - 13:51 |
 
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they're my last choice in a team. thycan hve their use. i use one now on av7 teams and those pesky stunties also have a hard time. give them dodge,block and diving tackle and they usefull. but av7 is a bit risky to field to many of them. |
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gamelsetlmatch
Joined: Mar 05, 2013
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Nov 27, 2018 - 14:23 |
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I have played a decent amount of games with Dark Elves and there arent very many of those games where I have even had an assasin on my team, let alone making the assasin a tactical player on my squad. So, I totally agree that the Asaasin has challenges*.
But to be fair, even if any of my Elves had mighty blow, I wouldnt expect them to become Legends off a 1 Cas per game average so I am not flinching at missing out on SPP because I stabbed someone.
I just think the team, as a whole, would benefit if the Assasins were built to perform most of your blitz actions because they would have Stab as an option in place of a -2d block. I wouldnt Stab because it will gain SPP, but becsuse it's not a roll that might make you kill your own player while trying to pull off dirty cheating elf, plays.
Within me considering how to build and use the Assasin, has caused me to reconsider how I am building and using the Blizers. They're only 20k more than a lino on the team and you gain an extra Ma and Block for that 20k sp thry ste kind of 'disposable' because of only needing 16 SPP to rebuild them into Blodge/SS if they die, niggle or get a nasty perm.
The Assasin (1 on the pitch at a time) and witch elves can play safety or be shielded while your line elves and blitzers elf net and secure positioning..
I'm going to try out this play style and feel that the assasin will live longer, if anything ..and I doubt there will be that much if a difference when it comes down to win%, SPP farming or pixel hugging |
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Stargate!
“In our play we reveal what kind of people we are.” |
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tmoila
Joined: Nov 25, 2012
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Nov 27, 2018 - 14:30 |
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If I were to make a dark elf team with assassin, the assassin would be farmed to 6spp and then merely used as an emergency sacker, with just leap.
Just looking at the odds of -2 die block, with two example players:
A) Lineman sacker with leap, wrestle and tackle gets the ball down in 25% of the cases, reroll increases the chance to 43,75%. With the added downside of getting your face stomped in when the -2D fails.
Player worth 130k.
B) Assassin with leap gets the ball down classic 1/6 times versus av9. And most often ball carriers have av8 or even av7. That translates into 27% and 41%! And because you can't reroll stab, you save a reroll.
Player worth 110k.
Advantages for the lineman are far more utility outside the sacking operation and potential for development with dodge.
Advantages for assassin are completely safe actions he can perform?
I mean I would not take assassin, like said in first paragraph, but if I would, then it would get just the leap. |
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gg |
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MonkeyMan576
Joined: Jul 02, 2008
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Nov 27, 2018 - 15:07 |
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Arktoris
Joined: Feb 16, 2004
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Nov 27, 2018 - 15:23 |
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I can remember having two multiple block assassins on my team...those were fun times. |
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Hail to Manowar! The latest charioteer to DIE for bloodbowl! - Slain, by Ghor Oggaz |
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gamelsetlmatch
Joined: Mar 05, 2013
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Nov 27, 2018 - 16:02 |
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Two multiblock assasins would be amazing fun! |
_________________
Stargate!
“In our play we reveal what kind of people we are.” |
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Arktoris
Joined: Feb 16, 2004
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Nov 27, 2018 - 18:01 |
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they stabbed everything! Even took down treemen.
was like having two honey badgers on my team. |
_________________
Hail to Manowar! The latest charioteer to DIE for bloodbowl! - Slain, by Ghor Oggaz |
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mrt1212
Joined: Feb 26, 2013
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Nov 27, 2018 - 18:34 |
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To me the biggest flaw of stab is you can't push people away with them. Assassins are less tactically inclined and have more downside risk than most players on block with stab since the only outcomes are pass/fail.
Building them is also a pain but it's all related. |
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Arktoris
Joined: Feb 16, 2004
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Nov 27, 2018 - 18:44 |
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| mrt1212 wrote: | To me the biggest flaw of stab is you can't push people away with them. Assassins are less tactically inclined and have more downside risk than most players on block with stab since the only outcomes are pass/fail.
Building them is also a pain but it's all related. |
I wouldn't call it a flaw as that would imply they should be able to push on a stab. Furthermore, assassins can elect to block instead of stab on those occasions where a push or knockdown are so important.
It simply balances them out. Blocking has other risks, such as rolling a skull...which becomes more and more probable as your opponent's guard and STR outnumber your elves' guard/STR. If opponent has standfirm or sidestep, blocking also has risks.
Stab doesn't care if you're opponent is a 6ST blodge vampire with 4 assists. 9+ and he's rolling on the ground and 0% chance you'll have a turnover. It is risk free!
We know stab is better than block because most opponents never leave anyone adjacent to them. Most of the time, the assassin has free reign to move anywhere and provide tactical advantage in so many other ways...often risk free. |
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Hail to Manowar! The latest charioteer to DIE for bloodbowl! - Slain, by Ghor Oggaz |
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MattDakka
Joined: Oct 09, 2007
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Nov 27, 2018 - 19:19 |
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Maybe Stab could be buffed by allowing Pro to re-roll the AV, but not allowing Pro to be used with Multiple Block + Stab.
Yes, the big problem of using Stab is remaining in toe-to-toe contact.
AV 7 and no protective skills make the Assassin an easy casualty.
I'd give him MA 7 and Dodge, Shadowing, Stab. 110,000 should be the right cost.
Stab could give 1 SPP per Casualty to help a bit the skilling-up. |
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mrt1212
Joined: Feb 26, 2013
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| Posted:
Nov 27, 2018 - 19:41 |
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| Arktoris wrote: | | mrt1212 wrote: | To me the biggest flaw of stab is you can't push people away with them. Assassins are less tactically inclined and have more downside risk than most players on block with stab since the only outcomes are pass/fail.
Building them is also a pain but it's all related. |
I wouldn't call it a flaw as that would imply they should be able to push on a stab. Furthermore, assassins can elect to block instead of stab on those occasions where a push or knockdown are so important.
It simply balances them out. Blocking has other risks, such as rolling a skull...which becomes more and more probable as your opponent's guard and STR outnumber your elves' guard/STR. If opponent has standfirm or sidestep, blocking also has risks.
Stab doesn't care if you're opponent is a 6ST blodge vampire with 4 assists. 9+ and he's rolling on the ground and 0% chance you'll have a turnover. It is risk free!
We know stab is better than block because most opponents never leave anyone adjacent to them. Most of the time, the assassin has free reign to move anywhere and provide tactical advantage in so many other ways...often risk free. |
It's not risk free though because remaining in contact with whoever, wherever is not risk free. It's an implied risk of using stab in the first place.
Stab isn't better than a standard block because it doesn't afford you much positional opportunity after the action is taken. Coaches electing not to give up an armor roll applies to players stronger and weaker than the assassin and thus doesn't make stab better than block. The way you tell it, you make Assassins sound like a Beast of Nurgle.
They have their uses and can occasionally produce the great play but predicating an overall strategy on Stab just seems middling at best given how else you can build up DEs. |
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gamelsetlmatch
Joined: Mar 05, 2013
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Nov 27, 2018 - 20:59 |
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"Unlearn what you have learned, you must!"
If your assasin is your blitzer, he wont snd up standing beside players as much |
_________________
Stargate!
“In our play we reveal what kind of people we are.” |
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mrt1212
Joined: Feb 26, 2013
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| Posted:
Nov 27, 2018 - 21:12 |
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| gamelsetlmatch wrote: | "Unlearn what you have learned, you must!"
If your assasin is your blitzer, he wont snd up standing beside players as much |
What? You can move after stab actions on a blitz?  |
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Arktoris
Joined: Feb 16, 2004
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Nov 27, 2018 - 21:21 |
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no problem mrt1212. If you ever play my dark elves, feel free to stand next to my assassins all game long. |
_________________
Hail to Manowar! The latest charioteer to DIE for bloodbowl! - Slain, by Ghor Oggaz |
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mrt1212
Joined: Feb 26, 2013
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| Posted:
Nov 27, 2018 - 21:34 |
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| Arktoris wrote: | | no problem mrt1212. If you ever play my dark elves, feel free to stand next to my assassins all game long. |
Oh cmon, you know you'd be the one basing my players with your assassin 90% of the time.
Like, give me some credit here - I'm not going to actively seek out contact with him but that's just standard BB play for almost any player in any situation - have a really good reason to do what you do, not just cause. The implied threat of marking an assassin is a canard and generally they just don't perform well enough to get others before they get got. Marking is purely situational so if I'm marking your assassin by my own volition, I have a damn good reason for it that's probably going to be significantly more important than ceding a stab attempt against some jamoke that just needed to eliminate an assist somewhere.
Again, it has its uses, but there are drawbacks to thinking stab is 'free'. As a last ditch effort against some dude? Great! Is having a vulnerable last ditch effort worth predicating your game around? Not unless you have a OTTDer |
Last edited by mrt1212 on %b %27, %2018 - %21:%Nov; edited 1 time in total |
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