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Mr_Foulscumm



Joined: Mar 05, 2005

Post   Posted: Jan 14, 2019 - 14:59 Reply with quote Back to top

I just use my imagination and blame all my loses on misclicks(which is nice, since blaming the RNG was getting old).



I've offered it before, and I might as well do so again. I'm not foreign to putting some time into a new client layout/scale up. Design and graphics workload that is.

Also depending on the size of an eventual dev team, I might have time for none pixel art sprites. Also, pixel art does work at larger scales as well and can look quite rad, which I'd be fine taking a go at as well. It's not a one man project by any stretch of the imagination however.

This is if the project actually takes off properly.

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Christer



Joined: Aug 02, 2003

Post   Posted: Jan 14, 2019 - 16:58
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Chainsaw wrote:
There is a massive demand for pixel art games at the moment. Some of the most popular indie titles are absolutely pixel art and some ridiculously low resolution.


Yes, I know about modern pixel art games. However, the thing here is that our particular circumstance is that scaling pixel art is more or less only feasible using integer scaling factors (2x, 3x, etc).

A 2x scaling would be 60 pixels per square, which is simply too large for the most common resolutions used.

Let's look at a few examples of pixel art style games out there:

Brocode: 4x scaling
Dead Cells: 4x scaling
Hyper Light Drifter: 4x scaling
Stardew Valley: 4x scaling
Terraria: 2x scaling

The trend is pretty clear here. 4x scaling would, based on the current icon and square size be 3120x1800 pixels just for the field. I have a 4k display myself and could manage with this, but it's not reasonable to expect from everyone.

Could it be done though? Probably, but building icons that are 15x15 to fit a typical 1080p panel would lose so much fidelity that it would probably look bad instead of stylized in a pixel art fashion.

A 2x scaling factor could probably be made to work for the 1080p resolution, but it's cutting it *really* close. It would require extensive work in terms of interface (on the order of the html5 project).

Another alternative would be non-integer scaling, which is theoretically possible (and something I've explored personally in the past). The result is interesting, but not quite "there" in terms of quality in my opinion. Could be used as an intermediate step until new assets are created.

To me, the SVG path with distinct components that can be mixed and matched seems to be the most reasonable way to go.
Christer



Joined: Aug 02, 2003

Post   Posted: Jan 14, 2019 - 17:06
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Mr_Foulscumm wrote:
I've offered it before, and I might as well do so again. I'm not foreign to putting some time into a new client layout/scale up. Design and graphics workload that is.


I'm absolutely open to a dialog about how to go about this. I think the fixed size client is a huge issue and turns off a lot of people from sticking around.

Pixel art or not, maybe taking cues from other indie games with more artsy style icons (Prison Architect, Rimworld, etc) is also an option.

I'm prepared to put 100% effort into a project like this. As you say, it's not a one-man project but waiting until there's a full team of people willing to do the work is not going to work. If you're serious about doing this and have the time, let's set up an initial design meeting and get started. Poke me on Discord at some point and we'll talk.

Step one would be to make some decisions and create a first version of a todo list.
harvestmouse



Joined: May 13, 2007

Post   Posted: Jan 15, 2019 - 10:39 Reply with quote Back to top

One advantage of staying with pixel art is if you up the size to 50-70 pixels you are in the snes/gameboy advanced area.

Legally i am unsure how happy you would be with the ripping of sprites. However there is an immense library of official and fan sprites out there.

1. This really opens up the scope of custom league. Star wars? Marvel? Pokemon? leagues with custom rules to fit. I myself have put together a one piece themed game.

Another is that these sprites come with lots of action sprites. Which means if the client was adapted to take moving sprites that would be a big step forward visually.

Lastly of course you wouldnt want ripped sprites for the official site rosters. However old sprites of the same size would be a good start base to learn from. The 28s style at double the size wouldnt be a good use of pixel limits. They should be much better, which is a new challenge in itself.
Chainsaw



Joined: Aug 31, 2005

Post   Posted: Jan 15, 2019 - 12:24 Reply with quote Back to top

Christer, with all due respect, you are over complicating it.

I would say the most feasible is to make the window scale x2 or x4 (of course a non-trivial development but the simplest option available), and look to build in support for higher res icons (pixel OR SVG) with fallbacks to the current ones. Then people can upscale and improve the icons as required. If you feel the current icons are not workable at 4x scale then use scale2x or a similar solution to bridge the divide. That way you have a progression, a transition, during which people still can use the client but can also see where they might be able to help improve it.

Getting into SVG and individual body components etc is going down a very long, windy road where the end is nowhere near in sight soon.

I would say pick the path of least resistance.

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harvestmouse



Joined: May 13, 2007

Post   Posted: Jan 15, 2019 - 12:31 Reply with quote Back to top

Most of the current icons wouldnt look good at x2. You would need to use blending techniques. I would also say the style of the icons (big cartoonish head, lack of definition) wouldnt be that suitable for x2. That said more than half of a larger client icon base already exist.
Chainsaw



Joined: Aug 31, 2005

Post   Posted: Jan 15, 2019 - 13:09 Reply with quote Back to top

harvestmouse wrote:
Most of the current icons wouldnt look good at x2.

You do realise the current solution is to let Windows 10 scale the JavaBB window, right? Are people complaining about it once they discover it? No, they are glad of the larger UI.

What's all this hate for the low res icons. I mean, sure, look to improve on them but why are people literally pretending that they are a blocker on scaling the current UI?

I'm at a loss to explain this strange disconnect.

EDIT: not sure I'm helping this discussion. I'll sit it out from now on unless I can actually work on it.

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harvestmouse



Joined: May 13, 2007

Post   Posted: Jan 15, 2019 - 13:40 Reply with quote Back to top

Isnt temporarily lowering the screen resolution a better option? Or isnt that possible in some cases?

Well the fact i have done a lot of the icon work puts me (in my opinion) in a position about commenting on them. So there is no hate here. And i am not suggesting replacing them for 30x30 pixel squares. However for them to look better than a temporary measure at double the size would require a lot of work. So in that case it is better to look at other options.

You could have far more realistic looking icons that might be attractive to new users. Possibly helping to grow fumbbl. As per other recent threads.

In no way am i suggesting replacing the current size client or icons. That would be detrimental to the site and particularly to leagues like cibbl, stunty and secret leagues; all of which have extensive 30x30 icon work.
Mr_Foulscumm



Joined: Mar 05, 2005

Post   Posted: Jan 15, 2019 - 14:13 Reply with quote Back to top

Harvest is correct, the current icons will have to be remade, even if they're kept as pixel art. Of course, they can be remade after the fact, and we'd replace them as we go.

One thing that I really really like about Christers idea though is, that we'd be able to do custom colours etc for our teams without having to make new icons. SVG is really cool. Hell, we could even have the actual, accurate mutations show up on players, show permanent injuries on the players on the in game graphics etc. (more work, but way less than trying to do the same work with pixel sprites). Rimworld has an asset library of artwork that it draws on to build its characters and the possibilities are so cool it's almost impossible to say no to it! Very Happy

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Christer



Joined: Aug 02, 2003

Post   Posted: Jan 15, 2019 - 14:22
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Ok, a couple of responses.

Chainsaw wrote:
Christer, with all due respect, you are over complicating it.

I would say the most feasible is to make the window scale x2 or x4 (of course a non-trivial development but the simplest option available)


The problem here is that a direct 2x scaling simply wouldn't fit for the most common resolution on the site (1920x1080). I want to stress, though, that I am not averse to adding support for larger icons in whatever way before they are actually available, and use scalings of the current icons as an intermediary solution. Waiting until everything is 100% ready means we'll never get to the scaled client.

One this I feel is absolutely critical in a rescaling project is to make the client look good in 1080p. This is the most common resolution used on YouTube. Anything that doesn't significantly improve this aspect is honestly a waste of time.

Mr_Foulscumm wrote:
One thing that I really really like about Christers idea though is, that we'd be able to do custom colours etc for our teams without having to make new icons.


Now, this isn't strictly limited to only SVG. It's quite possible to do colour swapping and icons built from parts even if they're pixel art. But let's get together and talk about it in detail and come up with a first draft of requirements and targets.
koadah



Joined: Mar 30, 2005

Post   Posted: Jan 15, 2019 - 14:23 Reply with quote Back to top

It looks to me that the new client can go fairly
big without looking too bad.

Can it be done in such a way that new images can be swapped in when they become available?

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Christer



Joined: Aug 02, 2003

Post   Posted: Jan 15, 2019 - 14:29
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koadah wrote:
Can it be done in such a way that new images can be swapped in when they become available?


Yes, and that is my plan for a project like this. I imagine a rough project plan like this:

1. Initial planning and design decisions.
2. Make a small number of test icons (stunty, regular, big guy perhaps), or icon parts if that was the decision in step 1.
3. Implement a scalable version of the client in general, repurposing the existing art assets for everything that hasn't been reworked. This can be done in parallel with step 2.
4. Slowly update art assets as they become available.
harvestmouse



Joined: May 13, 2007

Post   Posted: Jan 15, 2019 - 20:12 Reply with quote Back to top

Remember that a lot of the icons were done for the old large client. They were 50x50 squares i think. If that is a suitable size they might be good for testing. Also mr_furious may have his icons in a larger size.

I think pixel parts is a great idea. If you go down this road i advise getting away from side views and have action views (like the birthday icons) instead.

2 reasons for this being; 1 side views are time consuming and 2 i have never liked side views when moving backward. I think it looks silly.
flashman1234



Joined: May 29, 2016

Post   Posted: Jan 15, 2019 - 22:10 Reply with quote Back to top

what are the action views / birthday icons?
harvestmouse



Joined: May 13, 2007

Post   Posted: Jan 15, 2019 - 22:21 Reply with quote Back to top

https://fumbbl.com/help:10th_FUMBBL_Birthday_Players

There were a few changes for the year after, but these were the original batch.
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