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awambawamb



Joined: Feb 17, 2008

Post   Posted: May 02, 2019 - 07:47 Reply with quote Back to top

wow.
due to the recent events, I suppose a large part of us should either
1) get over it (build up some armor)
2) cool down (really, think before typing and speaking)

I thought about it, lately, and I've noticed a lot of us just don't care. People don't care about speaking, don't care about commitment, don't care about language, don't care about what this is all about - having fun. but it's also a competitive game, and you don't really have fun when you lose. there's a winner and a loser (ok, ties are ties... to hell with tie), and nobody likes to be on the losing side... EXCEPT bloodbowl has many sides you can win. be it fouling, bashing, maiming, throwing little people down to the endzone even if it's just once.
But, being a dice-based game, it's possible you get that 1 streak that completely f__s up whatever you do. eh. that's the thrill you look for into those games, imho, but also what can be frustrating to see and that's where the fun goes away. that moment your opponent should care about it, and not being a jerk: gloating in your opponent's bad luck justifies the unluky side to vent out... in a uncontrolled manner, if happens. after all, you didn't care about what happened on the other side so why bother.

TL;DR
do we still care about the game?

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Kondor



Joined: Apr 04, 2008

Post   Posted: May 02, 2019 - 10:43 Reply with quote Back to top

awambawamb wrote:
wow.
due to the recent events, I suppose a large part of us should either
1) get over it (build up some armor)
2) cool down (really, think before typing and speaking)

I thought about it, lately, and I've noticed a lot of us just don't care. People don't care about speaking, don't care about commitment, don't care about language, don't care about what this is all about - having fun.


As I have grown older I have simply grown more apathetic. I look at the original post and I just don't care anymore. It is strange because I have watched the culture of the first world become hardened to realities around us and then we hyper focus on items like this that are of little import in the grand scheme of things.

Like almost everyone, I fall into a couple of categories that are easily mocked. I now brush it off when I hear people use offensive language. In fact, I often make fun of my own groups using some of our stereotypes. (There is a kernel of truth at the base of those stereo types.)

Anyway. I agree that we should be civil and avoid language that easily offends others but we should also try not to be easily offended.

I read a quote that said something like. "One who takes offense when no offense is met is a fool. One who takes offense when offense was meant is often a greater fool." By that standard, Western societies are full of fools.

Now I choose to ignore the blathering fools who shout he said this or she said that.

In the last 10 years I have lived in Brazil, Kyrgyzstan, and now Madagascar. There is so much wrong in the world and so many places to focus my energy. There are so many places for any good person to focus their energy. It bothers me that these are the issues that draw people's ire.
SpecialOne



Joined: Oct 17, 2005

Post   Posted: May 02, 2019 - 10:54 Reply with quote Back to top

Of all this reading. I'm not allowed to say dicerape anymore? But what about my feelings? If I feel the dices are raping me? Can't I speak of it? Harsh. People need to split things up. Some words or sayings are about the game, and not about the person. geez.

And I can't call my opponent a filthy lucker? Even if they are? Where do the boundaries go? When someone is insulted? But all people get insulted for very various reasons, so to play it safe, no chat at all? But if I like a nice chat, and the opponent doesn't respond, can I then be offended?

I have a hard time with all this offending over stuff. A hard time to figure out where the boundaries are, and what to do about it.

small story.
Not too long ago the danish national football team won a game, andthere were cameras in the lockerroom. They sang a song about winning, and it ended with the phrase "BIG TITS". It became a huge story, that they should not do that. Should people like this stop doing what they do as a sportsteam, because the camera is there? Shouldn't the camera show the world as it is? Must we filter anything? Must we also be aware of who is watching us now? Normally there is no camera in the lockerroom after a game. A couple of month later a team in the best division did the same. No story. Why? they are also football stars, and some of them even play for the national side also. This is where things gets weird for me and difficult to navigate in. On the national arena, it was a big thing, on the more local arena, not so much. but same sport, same thing with a camera in the lockerroom, showing a team winning.

All of this in short. I am confused. Carry on, and I will read along.
Purplegoo



Joined: Mar 23, 2006

Post   Posted: May 02, 2019 - 11:11 Reply with quote Back to top

This is a website where some really minor ‘swearwords’ I’ve heard said on conservative TV in the middle of the day aren’t considered OK even with asterisks (someone with more time than me is going to have fun cleaning up the thread at some point). You’re playing a board game with strangers online; you have no idea who they are or what their opinion on any subject is. In that combined context, whatever your view on whether the use of ‘gay’ as a pejorative term is OK, I would think most of us know some people think it is not alright and, as such, why would you use it in the chat window, on Dischord or on the forum?

Personally, I don’t think it is OK and I don’t think I’ve used the word that way since I was too young to know any better. I’m sure I’m not without sin and I’ve laughed in a conversation without picking it up or whatever, but in 2019 I’m sure most people have it on their ‘not OK’ word list?

The OP here is apparently not without fault in this situation. But I agree with them a ticking off was due the other way as well, considering the context of the site.
Christy



Joined: Jul 19, 2007

Post   Posted: May 02, 2019 - 11:12 Reply with quote Back to top

Kondor wrote:
awambawamb wrote:
wow.
due to the recent events, I suppose a large part of us should either
1) get over it (build up some armor)
2) cool down (really, think before typing and speaking)

I thought about it, lately, and I've noticed a lot of us just don't care. People don't care about speaking, don't care about commitment, don't care about language, don't care about what this is all about - having fun.


As I have grown older I have simply grown more apathetic. I look at the original post and I just don't care anymore. It is strange because I have watched the culture of the first world become hardened to realities around us and then we hyper focus on items like this that are of little import in the grand scheme of things.

Like almost everyone, I fall into a couple of categories that are easily mocked. I now brush it off when I hear people use offensive language. In fact, I often make fun of my own groups using some of our stereotypes. (There is a kernel of truth at the base of those stereo types.)

Anyway. I agree that we should be civil and avoid language that easily offends others but we should also try not to be easily offended.

I read a quote that said something like. "One who takes offense when no offense is met is a fool. One who takes offense when offense was meant is often a greater fool." By that standard, Western societies are full of fools.

Now I choose to ignore the blathering fools who shout he said this or she said that.

In the last 10 years I have lived in Brazil, Kyrgyzstan, and now Madagascar. There is so much wrong in the world and so many places to focus my energy. There are so many places for any good person to focus their energy. It bothers me that these are the issues that draw people's ire.


I disagree about it being of little import. Certainly I used it as a teenager with my friends. Looking back I see how linking something part of someone's identity as rubbish could hurt them. Did we mean it? Not even slightly but the effects were the cause of our own actions.

At that age it can have a big effect on someone who is coming to terms with who they are. If a large proportion of people I dealt with linked something I associated with as "rubbish" I can see that having an effect on my confidence.

Certainly using gay in that way would get me in trouble in work were simple swearing would not. This is something I agree with aswell. I agree that once there is an apology and a lack of repeat offenses it should not be a big deal.

I agree people need to not go out of their way to take offense but people need to take responsibility for their own actions and words. I have found (from life, no one here specifically) that people seem to be all for getting rid of PC madness (sorry PurpleChest) until they are the ones being insulted.
Kondor



Joined: Apr 04, 2008

Post   Posted: May 02, 2019 - 13:09 Reply with quote Back to top

Christy wrote:
Kondor wrote:
awambawamb wrote:

I thought about it, lately, and I've noticed a lot of us just don't care. People don't care about speaking, don't care about commitment, don't care about language, don't care about what this is all about - having fun.


As I have grown older I have simply grown more apathetic. I look at the original post and I just don't care anymore. It is strange because I have watched the culture of the first world become hardened to realities around us and then we hyper focus on items like this that are of little import in the grand scheme of things.

Like almost everyone, I fall into a couple of categories that are easily mocked. I now brush it off when I hear people use offensive language. In fact, I often make fun of my own groups using some of our stereotypes. (There is a kernel of truth at the base of those stereo types.)

Anyway. I agree that we should be civil and avoid language that easily offends others but we should also try not to be easily offended.

I read a quote that said something like. "One who takes offense when no offense is met is a fool. One who takes offense when offense was meant is often a greater fool." By that standard, Western societies are full of fools.

Now I choose to ignore the blathering fools who shout he said this or she said that.

In the last 10 years I have lived in Brazil, Kyrgyzstan, and now Madagascar. There is so much wrong in the world and so many places to focus my energy. There are so many places for any good person to focus their energy. It bothers me that these are the issues that draw people's ire.


I disagree about it being of little import. Certainly I used it as a teenager with my friends. Looking back I see how linking something part of someone's identity as rubbish could hurt them. Did we mean it? Not even slightly but the effects were the cause of our own actions.

At that age it can have a big effect on someone who is coming to terms with who they are. If a large proportion of people I dealt with linked something I associated with as "rubbish" I can see that having an effect on my confidence.

Certainly using gay in that way would get me in trouble in work were simple swearing would not. This is something I agree with aswell. I agree that once there is an apology and a lack of repeat offenses it should not be a big deal.

I agree people need to not go out of their way to take offense but people need to take responsibility for their own actions and words. I have found (from life, no one here specifically) that people seem to be all for getting rid of PC madness (sorry PurpleChest) until they are the ones being insulted.


Like I said before "I agree that we should be civil and avoid language that easily offends others but we should also try not to be easily offended."

Language that is likely to offend someone is not a good thing. Honestly, it is never appropriate. You should always treat people the way you would like to be treated.

However, everyone should grow a thicker skin. Realize that this is not a Western workplace environment, and you are may play games against people from any culture imaginable.

Further, fretting over inadvertent offense cheapens the response when indignation is warranted.
Verminardo



Joined: Sep 27, 2006

Post   Posted: May 02, 2019 - 13:35 Reply with quote Back to top

Thanks for the clarification Christer, actually, I would have been very surprised if the OP had been a fair representation of events. Still I would argue against the "normalized language" argument, it is just a very poor argument.
ArthurWynne



Joined: Sep 23, 2015

Post   Posted: May 02, 2019 - 13:37 Reply with quote Back to top

Talking about individuals giving or taking offense is kind of barking up the wrong tree IMO. Using words like "gay", "lame", or "retarded" as general-purpose negative adjectives reinforces harmful prejudice, regardless of the speaker's intent when they say it. Nobody should do it, everybody should call it out. And this is not an issue that's somehow spesific to American culture, this is done all over the world and it affects people all over the world.

Obviously whoever EGK was playing against didn't mean to slur or degrade him, spesifically. But that's not the point. The point is it doesn't make sense to use the word in that way without the unspoken assumption that "gay" (or "lame" or what have you) = "bad". Which is the actual root issue that needs to be eradicated from people's thinking.
Verminardo



Joined: Sep 27, 2006

Post   Posted: May 02, 2019 - 14:10 Reply with quote Back to top

All true but this:

Christer wrote:
2. The opponent apologized 5 times during the chat.


does put the OP into perspective for me. I get where the anger is coming from, I do. But what the OP is doing here is just trolling, and it's not helping the cause.
DrDeath



Joined: Mar 27, 2011

Post   Posted: May 02, 2019 - 14:27 Reply with quote Back to top

I agree using 'gay' as a derogatory term is completely unacceptable - and unfortunately it is NOT outdated at least in the UK, many schoolkids use it which is sad. I would try not to take it personally though EG - after all you were on the other end of a computer, how on Earth would he know you (unless you've met at a TT tournament, or come out on here before)?

To open a can of worms I also find the general community's view of women pretty depressing, just look around a lot of the Amazon team and player names, the miniature lines of players wearing skimpy bikinis (would they really wear that to play Blood Bowl good grief. Kudos to that sculptor recently who designed some more respectful minis though), hell even Cyanide's first edition game had a team banner of a pair of boobs! Appalling. We talk about increasing player base on here sometimes - well if you alienate half the population straight off the bat, that's not a good start is it?!
koadah



Joined: Mar 30, 2005

Post   Posted: May 02, 2019 - 15:02 Reply with quote Back to top

Kondor wrote:

Like I said before "I agree that we should be civil and avoid language that easily offends others but we should also try not to be easily offended."

Language that is likely to offend someone is not a good thing. Honestly, it is never appropriate. You should always treat people the way you would like to be treated.

However, everyone should grow a thicker skin. Realize that this is not a Western workplace environment, and you are may play games against people from any culture imaginable.

Further, fretting over inadvertent offense cheapens the response when indignation is warranted.


I don't think I need a thicker skin. Whether I am "offended" or not, that doesn't automatically mean that I should let things go.

The OP may well have been way over the top. May have needed to calm down and consider their response. May be needed to give the opponent the benefit of the doubt.

I remember reading an interview with a man in the southern US who didn't even realise that killing a black man was illegal until he was 18 and joined the army.
Admittedly the man was pretty old. But still, I guess pretty much anything can be normalised if you let it.

Some of you may have lived in different places where worse things happen on a much bigger scale. But bad things still happen here. Normalising certain types of behaviour makes it easier for them to happen. Even if it is just one dead, not hundreds, personally, I still care.

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PurpleChest



Joined: Oct 25, 2003

Post   Posted: May 02, 2019 - 15:34
FUMBBL Staff
Reply with quote Back to top

My secondary Career stream is as an Equality and Diversity Trainer. Clearly it is the UK law I specialise in, as that's where I work, but i have a horse in this race and should state so.

This is 100% not OK.

The focus should always be upon the impact not the intention. The impact here is offense was caused, and hence it is 100% over the line and the person responsible needs to be dealt with. How they are dealt with may take into account context and intention, but the outcome should always see the drawing of the line.

It is offensive language and I believed not within the site rules. If that policy has relaxed, than I am not in favour of that relaxation.

Anyone involveds sexuality and preferences are of no impact of relevance, anyone using such a term abusively to me will find themselves challenged, and if apologies and behavioural change was not offered, i would take the incident forward.

It is not on. 100%.

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I am a barbarian here because i am not understood by anyone
Wuhan



Joined: Aug 02, 2003

Post   Posted: May 02, 2019 - 16:26 Reply with quote Back to top

https://xkcd.com/386/
mrt1212



Joined: Feb 26, 2013

Post   Posted: May 02, 2019 - 18:04 Reply with quote Back to top

SpecialOne wrote:
Of all this reading. I'm not allowed to say dicerape anymore? But what about my feelings? If I feel the dices are raping me? Can't I speak of it? Harsh. People need to split things up. Some words or sayings are about the game, and not about the person. geez.

And I can't call my opponent a filthy lucker? Even if they are? Where do the boundaries go? When someone is insulted? But all people get insulted for very various reasons, so to play it safe, no chat at all? But if I like a nice chat, and the opponent doesn't respond, can I then be offended?

I have a hard time with all this offending over stuff. A hard time to figure out where the boundaries are, and what to do about it.

small story.
Not too long ago the danish national football team won a game, andthere were cameras in the lockerroom. They sang a song about winning, and it ended with the phrase "BIG TITS". It became a huge story, that they should not do that. Should people like this stop doing what they do as a sportsteam, because the camera is there? Shouldn't the camera show the world as it is? Must we filter anything? Must we also be aware of who is watching us now? Normally there is no camera in the lockerroom after a game. A couple of month later a team in the best division did the same. No story. Why? they are also football stars, and some of them even play for the national side also. This is where things gets weird for me and difficult to navigate in. On the national arena, it was a big thing, on the more local arena, not so much. but same sport, same thing with a camera in the lockerroom, showing a team winning.

All of this in short. I am confused. Carry on, and I will read along.


Let me help you out with some of this confusion.

1. It is not life arresting to adjust your communications to the audience who you can implicitly assume are not receptive towards invocations of rape to convey frustration, QED. In general, most people could do without such an invocation, even if some are completely beholden towards using the phrase reflexively.

2. Being conscious of how you come across to a wide spectrum of people is part of your job of living. Feel free to express yourself but by the same token, be aware that you will receive blowback and not all blowback is equal nor is all blowback just about one individual. Yes, people can find offense in anything but that doesn't mean all offense is invalid rather, offense should be integrated in how you pursue further thought and communication, not out of a desire not to offend, but to clearly communicate exactly what you mean without there being any room for confusion or ambiguity.

3. Please please spec my games for an example of how you can chat and have people respond positively to it without drawing from a crummy well. It takes time to find your voice absent your instincts and base impulses but it can elevate your overall communication skills if you really work on them.

4. You will step in some crap unintentionally. Apologies carry less weight than future action.

I know that it can be hard to think of acting in a way contrary or differently than your status quo because obviously the status quo works perfectly for you and why should you change? But if that's how everyone acts we wind up with a completely inhospitable place for gaming.

If you need pointers or direction, reach out. Most of us trying to be conscientious of other people's existence and experience are more than happy to help out and not only improve ourselves along the way by working through seemingly tough stuff together, but also help get one more person on the team of helping everyone live a good life free of inherent denigration.
Goldenblue



Joined: Apr 23, 2019

Post   Posted: May 02, 2019 - 18:05 Reply with quote Back to top

I'm new to this site so I don't know how much my opinion here is welcomed but I think a temporary ban followed by a longer one for repeated use of that homophobic slur would be fair reproach. I'm a teacher and it is what i'd do in class. It just is not acceptable for somebody to be doing that in a public forum.
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