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ph0enyx13



Joined: Nov 14, 2015

Post   Posted: Jun 21, 2019 - 03:58 Reply with quote Back to top

I got hammered in my NAF game as amazons vs woodies. I did let up a few 1 die blocks on the ball, but even when I used guard on the corners or a vengabus my opponent didn't seem to upset about taking an uphill. Was I wrong to carry with Roxanna instead of a blitzer? How do Amazons and other non-dwarf (and I guess nonhuman) popular NAF teams (brets, undead, dark elves, necro, and lizardmen) deal with the strip ball/tackle war dancer combo?
Antithesisoftime



Joined: Aug 20, 2014

Post   Posted: Jun 21, 2019 - 05:48 Reply with quote Back to top

Well, when you get that wardancer on the ground, you foul it until it's dead
Alternatively, get him to a sideline and surf him
Unless it's your wardancer, the best wardancer is a dead wardancer
Garion



Joined: Aug 19, 2009

Post   Posted: Jun 21, 2019 - 08:05 Reply with quote Back to top

In an naf tournament take sure hands if your team doesn't come with the skill.

There will be wardancers with strip ball.

Without SH you really have to get good at screening so the leap isn't possible, or if they do leap they are horribly isolated and unable to bring other elves into support the loose ball situation.

Also keep your tackle player (a skill you should also be taking) near your ball carrier. This will act as a deterrent some of the time, also if the wardancers does leap into your cage have a tackle player assisting means dodging out the cage is harder for their dancer. It also means you have a player on hand to help get the ball back should a nasty elf with dodge grab the ball.

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Rawlf



Joined: Jul 15, 2007

Post   Posted: Jun 21, 2019 - 12:46 Reply with quote Back to top

Look at the angle from which the wardancer can attack and make sure you control the opposite side of the cage, so the loose ball will be inside your teams area and can not be stolen easily.

It also helps to run the cage/bus at the sideline. The wardancer then looks at being surfed if he attacks. For this purpose I would use Roxanna as the bus driver / bodyguard of the ballcarrier. So she can surf the dancer and recover the ball if the strip attack is done. If it is not, she is then free to surf the next best elf in the way so the bus can go forward.

In short: you can not avoid the strip ball attack, but you can make it risky and costly for your opponent.
NickNutria



Joined: Jul 25, 2006

Post   Posted: Jun 21, 2019 - 12:47 Reply with quote Back to top

Wardancers tend to kill themselves by jumping (3+) into cages and going for a one dice or -2 die block. After getting the ball free they need to pick up the ball to get it out of the cage. Make sure the woodie player has to pay dearly, if he doesn't succeed by man marking most of his players or simply by forming a cage.
Purplegoo



Joined: Mar 23, 2006

Post   Posted: Jun 21, 2019 - 13:31 Reply with quote Back to top

I do not subscribe to the theory that you have to take anti-Wood Elf skills to be able to cope with Wood Elfs in this sort of a format.

People will rightly point out that the position of your cage / structure and the screen(s) ahead of that should be thought through in order to make the leap troublesome, the landing risky if the WD sticks it (e.g. close to the sideline) and the ball scatter tough for the WEs to recover, but what is commonly forgotten is the bait. The WD is going to come at some point in the eight turns; if you can coax it at a good time for you (or the least worst time), so much the better. There is such a thing as driving too well.

WEs are obviously a top race in the format, but they’re certainly not unbeatable or so good you have to sacrifice skills to cope specifically with their threat. They are hard work, but so are other T1 behemoths.

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Topper



Joined: Aug 03, 2003

Post   Posted: Jun 21, 2019 - 13:38 Reply with quote Back to top

As Purplegoo says, know how to drive. The Venga cage is good at this. (A venga cage is a cage with an extra player inside meaning you get both a guard and a extra player to assist you). Still you need to be able to open up the field, so that he cannot just block you in at the side.
So dont make the cage too heavy! more like a "p" form. Ie a screen with your cage behind - so you can easily change side.
ArrestedDevelopment



Joined: Sep 14, 2015

Post   Posted: Jun 21, 2019 - 14:02 Reply with quote Back to top

Topper wrote:

So dont make the cage too heavy! more like a "p" form. Ie a screen with your cage behind - so you can easily change side.



This bit is really important because it not only allows you to change sides, but it makes it harder for woodies to get around one side (or even both) to recover the ball - which is what you want.

Being sacked in NAF isn't the end of the world if the ball isn't recoverable for the woodies, and you can remove the dancer - in fact some coaches would say it's preferable to "give a bite" at some point to force the issue on favourable terms: ie. bad scatter direction, no recovery for elves, enough time to still get momentum back and secure the drive.

Just making a vengabus won't stop you being sacked, you need to make it in the right place, and pay a lot of attention to where things might go wrong.


[edit] I've basically repeated what goo said Embarassed

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Last edited by ArrestedDevelopment on Jun 21, 2019 - 14:14; edited 1 time in total
awambawamb



Joined: Feb 17, 2008

Post   Posted: Jun 21, 2019 - 14:05 Reply with quote Back to top

Antithesisoftime wrote:
[...]Unless it's your wardancer, the best wardancer is a dead wardancer


this, totally

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DrDeath



Joined: Mar 27, 2011

Post   Posted: Jun 21, 2019 - 16:03 Reply with quote Back to top

I agree with Garion that sure hands is an essential skill for many teams - wood elfs with strip ball are so common, and you will encounter it elsewhere too. Even aside from woodies/strip ball, the ball is everything if you want to win so you should consider this a key skill. Also helps with pickups and steals if you manage to pop the ball yourself, helps deal with rain. These are things which win and lose games. In my opinion too many players get preoccupied with killer skills, yes of course they play their part but an extra KO or casualty from one of those skills is often far less important than a key roll concerning the ball.

Agree with other strategies above, would add that if you find yourself without a sure hands ballcarrier for whatever reason, a sidestepper is a good second choice. Even if your opponent strips the ball, you can choose to sidestep into the thickest part of your cage - making a recovery very difficult, or one of your other players may even catch it.
Arktoris



Joined: Feb 16, 2004

Post   Posted: Jun 21, 2019 - 17:18 Reply with quote Back to top

foul

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Last edited by Arktoris on Jun 22, 2019 - 11:29; edited 1 time in total
MenonaLoco



Joined: Jan 05, 2016

Post   Posted: Jun 21, 2019 - 17:49 Reply with quote Back to top

You lose. That's how you deal with them. Specially if you are a skink or such a crappy ball carrier.
PurpleChest



Joined: Oct 25, 2003

Post   Posted: Jun 21, 2019 - 19:19 Reply with quote Back to top

Listen to Purplegoo, he talks sense.

I went to the NAFC thinking that when i lost it tended to be on exactly the 2 die against uphill leap you talk about. i was 3/0/0 against non woodies and 1/1/1 against woodies.

I was thinking if i am losing to -2 die uphill, there int much wrong with what im doing, and while thats true, it is also limiting.

They will come, they will do a -2die, which against me works about 75% of the time. So plan for that, where will the ball go? can you control when they come? Can you kill it afterwards? The game i lost was to a 2 die uphill, but it cost him so much personnel that the game looked winnable for long periods despite that reverse.

Bad bounces happen. Elves pick up and dodge out in 3 TZ's. But at least try to ensure once they have been lucky, they need to keep being lucky. And if they are, then have a beer and tell someone your sad tale and win the next one.

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PainState



Joined: Apr 04, 2007

Post   Posted: Jun 21, 2019 - 19:30 Reply with quote Back to top

How do you deal with Wood Elves with out sure hands? Mighty blow and Dirty Player.

Heck in a NAF style tournament I think that is the solution for most matches.

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Garion



Joined: Aug 19, 2009

Post   Posted: Jun 21, 2019 - 19:59 Reply with quote Back to top

Purplegoo wrote:
I do not subscribe to the theory that you have to take anti-Wood Elf skills to be able to cope with Wood Elfs in this sort of a format.



Not trying to contradict, genuinely just curious...

If you are not using an elf race or skaven, would you not typically take tackle and or sure hands on most teams that dont start with them in NAF comps?

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