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Garion



Joined: Aug 19, 2009

Post   Posted: Oct 02, 2019 - 14:39 Reply with quote Back to top

So these were the official Blood Bowl Tiers during CRP’s creation -

Tier 1 – 45% of higher win rate : Any team not in another Tier
Tier 1.5 – 50% to 40%: Chaos Pact, Slann and Underworld
Tier 2 – 45% to 35% : Vampire
Tier 3 – 35% to 30%: Halfling, Goblin, Ogre

A number of people also used to coin the term Tier0 as well, though not “official” it included races that consistently performed above the tier 1 teams such as – Amazon, Wood Elf, Lizardmen, Skaven, Undead. These were teams that were often found with win percentages in the 55%+ category. These stats can be seen on fumbbl, both in the black box, and ranked divisions, across CRP and 2016 edition blood bowl. It is also seen in Cyanides stats and NAFs though theirs is a little different as the focus is of their run down is largely based on resurrection tournament data.

There are of course other issues with these stats and tiers, because some races excel at low TV play e.g. undead, but when they play in Ranked or Blackbox or even scheduled perpetual leagues when they start playing high TV teams their win percentage drops off a cliff – e.g Undead Blackbox stats in 2016 edition
* 1000TV to 1400TV = 57.72%
* 1400 to 1800 = 51.72%,
* 1800 – 2200 = 47.66%.

Conversely Nurgle have poor stats at low TV and got significantly better at high TV. So tiers have always had a heavy slant towards 1000 to 1800 TV and the rules have always been designed in such a way that teams are meant to be capped to stay in this range. Over the many editions we have played though the rules have had differing success at achieving this goal, whether it be Seasons, Ageing, on and off the pitch attrition, spiralling expenses, expensive mistakes. It is also worth noting there is a rock paper scissor aspect to win percentages e.g. dwarves do very well against amazons for obvious reasons. These racial biases tend not to be such an issue when evaluating a teams ability when enough games have been played between all races, though with SL even though over 10,000 games have been played its still not enough really to completely cover the cracks of certain racial biases. The same could also be argued for “picking” but I do not want to get in to that here.

To look at a different approach the current blood bowl world cup broke down the teams in to the following tiers, the current rule set also mentions tiers somewhere (though I cant find it currently but I remember it being printed in one of the books or maybe in the faq?) and they were similar to this as well though not identical -

• Tier 1: Amazons, Chaos Dwarves, Dark Elves, Dwarves, Lizardmen, Norse, Orcs, Skaven, Undead, Wood Elves
• Tier 2: Chaos Renegades, Elf Union, High Elves, Humans, Khemri, Necromantic
• Tier 3: Chaos, Nurgle’s Rotters, Slann, Underworld Denizens, Vampires
• Tier 4: Goblins, Halflings, Ogres

This seems to have been based largely on the latest stats from 2016 edition on the NAF - http://thetacklezone.net/wp-content/uploads/2019/02/NAF-racial-stats-Jan-2019.png though orcs and humans stats fit in this break downs 3rd tier, the rules designers decided to bump them in to tier2.

TL:DR – the tiers are a decent rough guide for overall team ability, are they perfect no, but they do provide a casual gamer with enough info to help choose a team they wish to play with, without accidentally handicapping them self.

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Last edited by Garion on Nov 06, 2019 - 10:32; edited 1 time in total
Garion



Joined: Aug 19, 2009

Post   Posted: Oct 02, 2019 - 14:39 Reply with quote Back to top

So on to Secret League –
When I and the teams I have worked with to create these rosters (initially along side Zakatan and Harvestmouse with some conversations with people like Spubbbba, Neoliminal and one or two others for specific teams, then later the CIBBL team) I always intended for the new teams/races I created to fit in to the existing tier structure. As with the official rosters they aren’t really meant to function consistently above 1800TV for long periods of time, though now is not the time to go down that rabbit hole of a topic. But keep in mind as with the “official Tiers” these tiers are indicative of teams playing the majority of their games in the 1000 to 2000 tv range.

As people have mentioned in this thread SL has a different weighting of team in certain tiers. I.E - official rosters have 24 teams, 70.83 % of which are tier 1 ( you could argue 20.83% are tier0 which would mean 50% are tier 1), then 12.5% are tier 1.5, 4.17% are tier2, and 12.5% and tier 3. Where as SL teams have a much bigger slant towards there being many more tier 1.5, 2 and 3 teams. This was intentional, it might not be to everyone’s taste as I have come across a number of coaches that fundamentally disagree with the Blood Bowl race tiers and they want as close a balance between all rosters as possible. However I and many others love the tier system, and as the official rosters were designed with tiers in mind so are the SL teams. Also the SL were all created using the “official pricing guide”. There are one or two players in specific teams that break those pricing rules to achieve the desired internal balance of a roster, again this happens in the main game with the official rosters as well; Dwarf, Goblin, Chaos Pact and Lizardman being the races that break the roster creation rules. Though in both the official rosters and SL breaking pricing convention is kept to an absolute minimum.

Below I will outline the tiers the rosters were meant to perform in when I designed them. Adhering to the brackets of tier 1, 1.5, 2 and 3. Any teams I intentionally designed to compete, or that I suspected may compete with the aforementioned tier 0 teams I will put in Tier 0 bracket, even though it’s not really meant to exist.

List of Tiers I expect(ed) the teams to be in, listed by tier then alphabetically
Tier 0, (55%+)(Same tier as Amazon, Wood Elf, Lizardmen, Skaven, Undead)
Avelorn
Daemons of Slaanesh
Nippon


Tier 1, (45%- 55%)(Same Tier as Chaos, Chaos Dwarf, Nurgle, Humans, Dwarf, Dark Elf, Elf, High Elf, Human, Khemri, Necromantic, Norse, Orc)
Beastmen
Big ‘Uns
Black Dwarf
Bretonnian
Cathay
Clan Eshin
Clan Mors
Dryad
Elemental Earth
Elemental Water
Estalia
Half-Elf
Khainite Assassins
Khorne
Kingdom of Ind
Kurgan
Necrarch
Norse Dwarf
Norther Nippon
Savage Orcs
Sea Elf
Sisters of Sigmar
Slaanesh
Tilea
Von Cartsein
Witch Elf
Valkyrie


Tier 1.5 (40% - 50%)(Same tier as Chaos Renegades, Slann, Underworld)
Albion
Araby
Blood Dragon
Border Princes
Clan Pestilens
Clan Skryre
Elemental Air
Elemental Fire
Engineers
Ethereal
Fimir
Forest Goblin
Giant
Half Orc
Hobgoblin
Hobgoblin Slavers
Hung
Ka Sabar
Kislev
Kurnous
Lahmian
Lybras
Mahrak
Myrmidia
Numas
Pirates of Sartosa
Slayer
Snakemen
Tzeentch
Zandri
Zoat


Tier 2 (35%-45%)(same tier as Vampires)
Centigor
Clan Moulder
Daemons of Khorne
Daemons of Malal
Daemons of Nurgle
Daemons of Tzeentch
Four Nations
Gnome
Pygmy
Rasetra
Skink
Sons of Stromfel
Strigoi
Undead Pirates
Were


Tier 3 (30%-35%) (same tier as Goblin, Halfling, Ogres)
Gnoblar
Lumbria
Nautican
Night Goblin
Ogre Kingdom
Snotling
Squig
Treemen

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Last edited by Garion on Nov 06, 2019 - 10:36; edited 1 time in total
Garion



Joined: Aug 19, 2009

Post   Posted: Oct 02, 2019 - 14:40 Reply with quote Back to top

more breakdown to come on this post

Percentage of SL teams via bracket

Tier 1 - 35.71% (or if you include tier zero, tier 1: 32.14% and tier 0: 3.57%)
Tier 1.5 - 36.9%
Tier 2 - 17.86%
Tier 3 - 9.52%

Percentage of Normal teams via bracket
Tier 1 - 70.8%
Tier 1.5 - 12.5%
Tier 2 - 4.2%
Tier 3 - 12.5%

Since people seem to be always want to talk about claw -

Teams with Claw
* Normal teams 8 out 24 have Claw access.= = 33.3%
* SL teams 26 out of 84 have claw = 30.95%


still to come - info on teams performing better, worse or as expected than the tier listed in the post above.

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Last edited by Garion on Oct 02, 2019 - 22:07; edited 2 times in total
ArthurWynne



Joined: Sep 23, 2015

Post   Posted: Oct 02, 2019 - 20:46 Reply with quote Back to top

First off, this was an interesting read and promises to get even more so as you add to it, thank you for making this thread!

A question comes to mind: Are Secret League teams (regardless of what tier is the desired balance point) primarily designed and balanced to be played against each other, against official teams, or against both?

I ask mostly out of curiousity but it becomes relevant for tier lists and balancing because of certain quirks of the Secret League "metagame" -e.g Claw is more common (Mutation access is more common, and more than a few SL positionals start with Claw, even ones that don't have M access), Tackle is less common (there are a lot more SL teams than official teams, but only very few start with any Tackle, and in general teams will have more idiosyncratic starting skills and fewer core skills, so they take longer to get around to Tackle), Stunty (and Dodge) players are more common etc. This obviously affects the viability of various designs and the win percentage of teams.
Garion



Joined: Aug 19, 2009

Post   Posted: Oct 02, 2019 - 21:58 Reply with quote Back to top

ArthurWynne wrote:

A question comes to mind: Are Secret League teams (regardless of what tier is the desired balance point) primarily designed and balanced to be played against each other, against official teams, or against both?


They are designed to play both. Tier 1 teams in SL should sit in a similar range of ability as tier 1 normal teams. This is a broad range though, this must be kept in mind. So just as Humans are not as good at high TV as Orcs, some SL teams will do better at high TV and some will do better at low.


Quote:

I ask mostly out of curiousity but it becomes relevant for tier lists and balancing because of certain quirks of the Secret League "metagame" -e.g Claw is more common (Mutation access is more common, and more than a few SL positionals start with Claw, even ones that don't have M access),


This is not true, the percentage of normal teams that have Claw 33.3% is greater than SL teams that have Claw 30.95%. Also SL is about to add another 4 teams which will make the Percentage of teams with claw drop down to 29.5%.

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Nelphine



Joined: Apr 01, 2011

Post   Posted: Oct 02, 2019 - 23:33 Reply with quote Back to top

That looks about right for what I expected to find with my team comparisons. Looking forward to comments on teams performing above or below expected.

Also, game intent on tv makes me sad. I don't even think he game starts until 1300 tv (this includes teams lie goblins that might be lower tv but purposefully want a few hundred tv from inducements), and my preferred playstyle starts at, oh, 1700-1900, and easily ranges up to 3500.
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