Frowny
Joined: Apr 27, 2020
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 Posted:
May 15, 2020 - 23:38 |
 
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Relatively new to blood bowl, and enjoying a lot of the play (probability management, watching your pixels level up) but also a little frustrated with it sometimes.
It is highly random, where any action can cause your loved player to just randomly die. Which can be frustrating for itself, but more-so I feel the rules actively punish the newer player, which to me is bad game design.
The majority of my frustration comes with the kick-off events.
FAME: You get fame by winning games. Thus the team with more wins is generally better, either a better team or with a better coach. after all, they are winning more games.
Events that favor offense (5 & 9)- Catching and repositioning 1 tile are useful, not game-changing but useful.
Events favoring Defense: Blitz is game changing, where you can sometimes catch the kickoff yoruself. Repositioning your entire defense is also quite strong, much better than moving 1 tile.
Overall, Kickoffs favor the defense. Unfortunately, the player favoring the defense is really favoring the winning player. They are likely to have kicked off more, having scored more touchdowns.
1) FAME favors the winner more
2) Non-fame events favor the defense (who just scored) and thus favors the winner more.
I am totally OK losing to Nuffle, or to my poor coaching, but losing to in-built rules that favor the other guy feels a bit bad. It also feels like bad game design, which I think bothers me just as much. |
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koadah
Joined: Mar 30, 2005
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May 15, 2020 - 23:55 |
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The results should favour you just as often as they favour the other guy. The skill is in taking advantage of your good fortune and being prepared for your bad.
As for game design it is pretty good and flexible. If you are playing table-top you can remove or add pretty much any rule you like.
Some people change the kick off table, some remove it all together.
I think that most BB coaches like it. Though, I guess many that didn't quit. 
You're doing nicely. Many would have started 2/11/26.  |
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O[L]C 2016 Swiss! - April ---- All Star Bowl - Teams of Stars - 2 more teams needed |
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Nelphine
Joined: Apr 01, 2011
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May 16, 2020 - 00:29 |
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also, the cost for having higher fan factor provides far more in terms of inducements to the other player than they get in return for having that high fan factor (and therefore most likely getting those fame elements). Winning due to fame on the kick off table is more like a random gesture to make up for the arbitrary extra tv winning teams are forced to take.
You're kind of right about blitz/perfect defense though; and it's one reason why so many coaches who have very good winning records, play for 1-0 or 2-1 games - minimize how often that kick off table can be used. |
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Rbthma
Joined: Jan 14, 2009
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May 16, 2020 - 00:40 |
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Certainly BB isn't designed the same as a game would be nowadays - it's been around the block quite a few times. It was never designed as "fair" - several races are inherently worse than others, etc. and I'm thankful for that personally.
Odd you don't mention Pitch Invasion- that comes up often when looking at kick-offs.
If as you say the kick-off table favors a winning team (team up in score first presumably) then a good experiment would be to play High Elves, Pro Elves or Wood Elves and score quickly in 1 or 2 turns. I don't think you will find it such an advantage as you think overall, certainly not in the Black Box environment if you choose to play there.
Anyhow, welcome! and yes as Koadah said your record is great if you are new to BB
edit: Blitz and Perfect D are quite strong - my rule when receiving is to setup to minimize the effects of those results if they come up dependent on the game situation (you may have to setup for an aggressive one side push if you are down in score, etc.) A fairly common mistake for coaches new to BB is to either stack the line, or to leave areas of the pitch vulnerable to a good kick + blitz |
Last edited by Rbthma on %b %16, %2020 - %00:%May; edited 1 time in total |
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Jeffro
Joined: Jan 22, 2009
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May 16, 2020 - 00:46 |
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I think you make good points, as many good coaches *will* choose to defend to start the game more often than not... and for good reason.
But everybody that has been playing this game for any length of time and hasn't been frustrated to the point of quitting on Blood Bowl entirely *will* acknowledge that this game isn't even close to balanced
Welcome, Frowny! From your post, methinks your moniker is apt  |
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ArrestedDevelopment
Joined: Sep 14, 2015
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May 16, 2020 - 01:10 |
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I'm gonna spend some time on this because it's a common thing to yell about kick off events, but they add a needed level of complexity to the game.
Let's look at them:
1+1: GET THE REF
Bribes to each team, not that common a KOE, and its effect on games varies - DP laden teams aren't so common any more, and frankly bribes are misused by many coaches these days. It can provide a very nice boost to any team with a SW, or a SW star, or even a bash team up vs Elves, but really it's not one most people sweat on too badly.
1+2 RIOT
One of the first swingy events, it can favour defence when the offense loses a turn, and offense when it gains one. Plenty hate this, but it's a necessary inclusion otherwise bash simply has a much more streamlined route on the 2-1 grind: it's a lot easier to execute, and decision making in latter turns is simplified if the possibility of a riot is removed.
2+2 PERFECT DEFENCE
Simply put, defensively favourable, although plenty of coaches make their defence worse. This KOE is here to effectively keep the attack honest - much like blitz - without it receiving first would be a far greater reward, with no questions as to whether to maximise blocks on the LOS and increase the odds of knocking down all 3 players put there. Both Blitz! and PD are there because the opportunity to strike first is a rather large boon in BB and it needs a counter to stop it being leaned on too heavily.
2+3 HIGH KICK
A sneakily useful KOE - a deep kick, or horrificly placed short one can be immediately countered as a problem by having the receiving team place a man directly under it. Especially great for teams like khemri who may struggle to pick the ball up, a free catch roll can smooth an entire drive if passed. Elves and other ag4 obviously can take advantage also. But any team can profit from this.
3+3 CHEERING FANS
The first of the FAME affected rolls, the FAME winner adds +1FAME to their roll (d6) +1 per cheerleader. Highest roll or both teams get a RR - this is fairly neutral, I've lost FAME with 12 fan factor vs 7 before. I've lost the roll for the reroll countless times with +1 FAME, and simply having one cheerleader offsets the FAME loss anyway. While you can plan in-game decisions around FAME based kick-offs, actively relying on them is foolish at best.
3+4 CHANGING WEATHER
Can kill a game for some teams, can get you out of a horrible spot for others/both. Blizzard can kill a slow bash team or an agi one turn. Rain hurts all, but ag4 or more less. Sweltering heat favours the team with the larger bench. Sunny hurts passing, but usually has litle effect on a game... mostly this just changes weather to nice though.
4+4 BRILLIANT COACHING
Pretty much exactly the same as cheering fans, except assistant coaches instead of cheerleaders.
4+5 QUICK SNAP
Offensive favourable - that setup you made to counter blitz and PD now becomes a max blocks setup unless the kick is horrible, in which case you can move towards positions to stabilise the drive. On a two or one turn this kick off event can turn the unlikely into the probable. It also punishes (and mostly prevents) hyper aggressive one off of the LOS defences, and allows the attack to simply decline the LOS entirely if vastly out numbered or out strengthed.
5+5 Blitz!
Like PD, here to keep the offense honest. While it is undeniably very powerful, there are some simple ways to setup against it - cover the widezones and setup overlapping zonal screens with triangulation. Having a guard in the backfield is also a strong counter to PD or Blitz in bash vs bash as he can step in where needed to fix the LOS issues that may have arisen. In addition to all this, while it favours the defence, it is entirely possible to lose a drive by overcomitting to a blitz or simply burning RR chasing one.
6+5 THROW A ROCK
Another FAME based event, and tbh, unless you have +2 FAME hardly one to bank to win via FAME. No other modifiers, straight d6 roll, and a random player. A soft counter to 11-man rosters with stars and scrubs. (I got one of my best ever players niggled by a rock while down 250tv and with +1 FAME, everyone has stories like this).
This is also potentially more punishing to bash teams who may have a shortage of high movement, or players capable of handling the ball. Or simply a positional they simply cannot run a drive properly without.
6+6 PITCH INVASION
Another rare KOE, this one is one where FAME potentially can be a real issue. But really mostly +2 FAME (which is somewhat rare). It kills teams with low response mostly and has the highest effect on short drives.
But you need to factor into all of the FAME based KOE that well, FAME isn't really based on winning only - Fan Factor is added to a random roll, and since long-term, even really unfortunate teams will average 6-8FF it's not that hard for them to even win FAME vs 10+ FF teams. Since you can effectively counter FAME on brilliant coaching and cheering fans simply by having an assistant + cheerleader when your opponent does not, this really leaves us with throw a rock (around 5% chance of rolling) and Pitch Invasion (same odds as riot, just under 3%) as KOE you would worry about... And they can still be very meaningless, or even worse for the team with FAME. |
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Lex_Rocket
Joined: Oct 27, 2018
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May 16, 2020 - 02:00 |
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The rules of blood bowl favor the coach that knows the rules well |
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juck101
Joined: Nov 16, 2003
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May 16, 2020 - 08:48 |
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Yes kick off results are very random and can swing games if you are not aware of them. The fun and balanced part is the amount of variance and skill in countering.
Lets run with the idea we broadly have three types of team (bash are slow strong and tough, agility are quick fragile and can handle the ball, hybrid have few no weakness but equally no strengths) and apply that to each kickoffs.
I would argue each can have different effects on your position if you are a bash, agility or hybrid playing against an opponent who is bash or agility or hybrid. That gives the excellent post from Arrested development 11 options with 6 permutations each (riot and bash vs ag, riot hybrid on agility etc).
This gives a very wide selection of strategies to utilise or try to avoid which we need to factor into the basic premise of who gets the ball starts that drive. If you spot a few problematic match ups, say agility vs bash with a blitz or quick snap as bash vs agility I argue this gives the game some richness that chess does not have because beast practice is to set up with this in mind.
However probability of 7, 6 & 8 is most likely and they rarely affect anyone that much, so the beginner should not be caught out that often because the extremes are less common.
My argument is to gain the most from an advantageous random kick off result is a risk against the outcome being one which is most detrimental to your set up. The balance of picking to gain most, or counter against the worst is a strategic choice. It is also dynamic if you are losing or winning I expect that choice differs. I would agree this hypothesis is detrimental to new players, yet as it's so random and the likely probably is nothing radical I doubt it’s that relevant. Basic turn by turn positioning and dice decision making will punish a new player far more than Kick offs. |
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juck101
Joined: Nov 16, 2003
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May 16, 2020 - 08:53 |
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Contrary to popular opinion the rules are intended to be balanced for each team overall (with the exception of stunty/tier 3 teams who are meant to be rubbish by design). It's not a perfect system and at different team values the balance tips a bit, but broadly the game is designed for all teams to be roughly equal overall. I would love to cite the vault rules (pre lrb5) which show that, but sadly it was deleted years ago.
Lets see what the next rule set does for that. |
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Mattius
Joined: Sep 03, 2006
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May 16, 2020 - 09:25 |
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Some great summaries here. The only one I would change is throw a rock. A turn 0 rock removing your best player (especially in NAF events) is brutal and there is no defense for it.
Saying this, it is hilarious and I guess the unfairness is what makes this game fun! |
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MattDakka
Joined: Oct 09, 2007
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May 16, 2020 - 13:31 |
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I comment only the Kick-Off events and weather I think have the highest potential impact:
Perfect Defence: in my opinion is too strong. I would change it into a Quick Snap for the defending team (3 players must be on LOS after this move).
My issue with set-up again is that you don't have always 11 vs 11 players, you could have lost some players and the new full set-up could really stop the attacking team (preventing LOS blocks, advancing, etc.).
High Kick: it helps a lot the receiving team, especially if it's a slow bash one. It would be nice to give a -1 modifier to catching the ball if it was kicked by a Kick player, otherwise Kick is less useful, and it's already a skill with marginal use during a game.
Sweltering Heat: it's really random and it doesn't necessarily favours the team with the longest bench.
Some teams rely on key positionals, if Khemri has a 14 man roster and loses 2 Guardians due to Heat even replacing them with 2 Skeletons will not make a big differerence. Therefore I would just give the Loner skill to the players rolling a 1 for the S.Heat test.
Would still add some variety and challenge but would not swing massively a game. I think that Sweltering Heat favours the team winning the toss and deciding to receive, rather than a team with a long bench, especially if the team with a long bench has players very different (i.e. while an Elf Lino can quite well replace a Blitzer, a Guardian can't be replaced by a skeleton).
Quick Snap: it's quite fine I think, but it can be strong when allowing a 1TTD.
Blitz! is one of the worst events (and I say it as a coach who favours agile teams). I'd like it to be nerfed a bit like so: the kicking team's coach rolls a D6 and adds +1 for each assistant coach and cheerleader, if the coach has not been ejected the D6 can be re-rolled: the total is the number of players allowed to perform the free turn. Notice that my nerf would add a layer of strategy, because if you foul randomly, argue the call and your Head Coach is ejected you can't re-roll the D6. Also, makes A.coach and Cheerleader more important, many coaches don't use them.
Throw a rock: another terrible event, you can lose a good player on turn 0 and even if he's not a Legend, he could be a key player. I would change it: the target player is Placed Prone and an Armour roll is made: if armour is broken then roll for injury.
Alternatively, another solution could be allowing the Apothecary/Igor to automatically heal the hit player, leaving him on the pitch Stunned.
Pitch Invasion: it can affect even long drives if your team is slow, for example Dwarfs. I would change it placing the affected players on the pitch Prone, not Stunned. It would still add some randomness, without giving a free TD to the receiving team.
And to reply to Frowny: yes, this game has some terrible and wild randomness, I agree with you, and I think that randomness should not excessively affect a game. When randomess adds some variety to a game is nice but when wild randomness you can't control, like a Rock or Heat ruins 1 hour-long game something is wrong in the game design.
Generally wild randomness doesn't fit a long game, it's ok if the game lasts 10 minutes or less.
I think game could be improved, but on the other hand, I still find BB quite enjoyable even with all its design flaws. With time and experience you can mitigate some of the randomness, reducing your frustration and having more fun. |
Last edited by MattDakka on %b %16, %2020 - %17:%May; edited 1 time in total |
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Verminardo
Joined: Sep 27, 2006
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May 16, 2020 - 13:54 |
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Sweltering Heat is the only thing I really think needs fixing, everything else seems fine to me. |
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koadah
Joined: Mar 30, 2005
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May 16, 2020 - 14:17 |
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I'm pretty sure that the game was never originally intended to be played as competitively as some people play it here.
The kick-off table has been greatly softened compared to some previous rulesets. Some of those were nuts. 
It would be great for league commissioners to have the option of using:
1. No kick-off table.
2. A softened 'competitive' table. Maybe more than one?
3. A throwback 'completely nuts' table.
The question is though, after putting in the work, how many people would actually use them? |
_________________
O[L]C 2016 Swiss! - April ---- All Star Bowl - Teams of Stars - 2 more teams needed |
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ArrestedDevelopment
Joined: Sep 14, 2015
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May 16, 2020 - 14:37 |
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CRP shaped the game towards competitive play a little, but sure.
Some leagues have trialled "no kick off events" over the years... most people who wanted that ended up hating it once they saw the effects on the overall game and meta |
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Strider84
Joined: Jun 03, 2009
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May 16, 2020 - 14:51 |
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blitz should not allow to blitz anyone, then you can set up against it properly and its still punished hard if you dont |
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