Balle2000
Joined: Sep 25, 2008
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 Posted:
May 17, 2020 - 17:58 |
 
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The rules of any game will "punish" any new player by the very nature of their existence, and the new player's lack of knowledge of their intricacies and implications. |
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koadah
Joined: Mar 30, 2005
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May 17, 2020 - 19:15 |
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Kamahl
Joined: Oct 24, 2005
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May 17, 2020 - 19:57 |
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My thoughts on this matter-
BB rules are punishing for newcomers (aka new coaches) - for instance, illegal procedure is a thing in tabletop rules. 4 minute turn length and auto turnover after time expires...
Games Workshop as a company that created many games, has on multiple occasions expressed that they do not create competitive and balanced systems, but FUN games.
In my book, having this kind of rules is a good thing for tabletop: you play the game(s) with your friends, and over the course of few days you often came with some house rules/tweaks in order to make the game fun experiance for all participants. ( for instance not playing dwarves Vs your mate's Halflings in a one-off game)
When you use Games Workshop game as a foundation for pick-up games, open league and such, with random participants...for instance online with a large community... problems start to surface. You can't expect all participants to have same expectations of fun game, and to know what his opponent hates and considers rude behaviour...
TLDR, BB is not friendly to new coaches in vacuum - Blackbox for instance is a horrible experience, and in ranked many will attempt to cherrypick new coaches. BUT, if you join a league and get to interact socially with other participants, game will be a wonderful experience. find a cool group of coaches and thats all it takes 
If you play the game to win, BB will dissapoint you sooner or later when you lose off multiple blitzes! against you, rock killing your key players, rolling sixtuple skulls and such. But if you play for fun...
ANd another thing. It has come up in this thread - if you hate randomness, go play chess>
Heres is my response to that: 1e4.
Now that i won 55% , ill give you my thoughts why games like chess will die out in the long run:
NO random elements.
For a game to be interesting in competition settings, i think we all want a game with a chance to win. Or at least make opponent really work to defeat you. But with AI networks being better than humans in games with no random elements. competition kinda loses the appeal. First it was chess, then Go...and the trend continued.
It's healthy for the game to have some random elements ( I love playing Warmachine for instance, that is my personal taste) but you can have too much of a good thing. In my view, BBowl has too much randomness to pursue "serios" play, but is a wonderful game as a source of fun if you are able to tolerate some rough patches. |
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Gnoblar
Joined: Mar 01, 2017
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May 17, 2020 - 20:15 |
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"chess will die out in the long run"
You mean that game that's been around for hundreds and hundreds of years? |
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koadah
Joined: Mar 30, 2005
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May 17, 2020 - 21:14 |
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| Kamahl wrote: |
ANd another thing. It has come up in this thread - if you hate randomness, go play chess>
Heres is my response to that: 1e4.
Now that i won 55% , ill give you my thoughts why games like chess will die out in the long run:
NO random elements.
For a game to be interesting in competition settings, i think we all want a game with a chance to win. Or at least make opponent really work to defeat you. But with AI networks being better than humans in games with no random elements. competition kinda loses the appeal. First it was chess, then Go...and the trend continued.
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Tip:
Set the difficulty to the level that you enjoy playing against.
It would be great if BB had a decent AI. |
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O[L]C 2016 Swiss! - April ---- All Star Bowl - Teams of Stars - 2 more teams needed |
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ClayInfinity
Joined: Aug 15, 2003
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May 17, 2020 - 21:30 |
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Interesting thread, thanks to the OP who posted...
I have been playing BB pretty much exclusively since 1988 with styrofoam boards. I have been on fumbbl since 2003 and have played all environments here (L,R,B). Two World Cups, run a Major (CanCon in Australia), played alot of table top and home leagues.
Since whatever the rules were called in the late 80's (where it was first to 3 TD's iirc) and we played with 2d6 tables, to what we have today, I would say this edition of the game is the closest to perfection (could do with a little more "blood" imho, but not much).
I have tried (and failed) numerous times to get gamer friends (PC gamers and role players) to play Blood Bowl and the rules are hard and complex in their own right before you even take into account the nuances of tactics and "good blood bowl". So, yes, its a fun game but its a challenge and some people aren't built for that challenge.
As for the mechanics mentioned here, from KoE's to FF to FAME to the old kill stack of skills and Halflings -2d blocking mummies and killing them, they're all "part of the game". The game is random and silly and yet allows tactical nous to prevail "most" times. Better skilled Coaches will win "most times". Better built teams will win "most" times. Some races will beat other races (i.e. Dwarves vs Flings) "most" times.
And it is this "most times" equation that keeps me drawn to the game. I want to win against the odds "some times" and I want to overcome challenges. I think if people want to move rules to increase the probability of "the most likely" result occuring, then the game will get stale and people will leave eventually for other games. I think that's a greater crime than having new Coaches take their lumps and learn the game - both rules and nuances.
Excellent post |
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Jopotzuki
Joined: Oct 07, 2011
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May 17, 2020 - 22:04 |
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| ArrestedDevelopment wrote: |
3+3 CHEERING FANS
The first of the FAME affected rolls, the FAME winner adds +1FAME to their roll (d6) +1 per cheerleader. Highest roll or both teams get a RR
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You will add +0, +1 or +2 to the dice roll depending on your fame (no FAME, +1 or +2 FAME) and +1 per cheerleader. |
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| Kam wrote: | | My Flings also disappear when they're blocked... I knew that was a bug! |
| ThierryM wrote: | | CR... The synonym of E-Penis right ? |
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The_Murker
Joined: Jan 30, 2011
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May 17, 2020 - 23:42 |
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"I'm pretty sure that the game was never originally intended to be played as competitively as some people play it here" -koadah
This. Blood Bowl is popular because an idiot can win. A person who is ignorant of half the rules can win. Bad can beat good. Goblins can defeat elves. Cage with chaos, and a child can string 4 wins together in Black Box. Frustrating for some, perhaps, but good for the health of the game, I believe.
Poker is popular because an idiot can win. It attracts a critical mass of noobs because enough of them do well initially to stick around for a while. Some get better, some don't. But it is the critical balance of a noob being able to win, with the potential for experienced grinders to eek out a tough living that keeps the game alive. Far more noobs have beginners luck than semi-pros have career ending losing streaks.
For Blood Bowl, if you can't handle losing to a worse player than you without your chat becoming toxic.. please.. quit. It will happen over and over, as I think it should, to keep new players coming in, and hooking *just* enough of them to get them to stick around and learn.
As to the OP, I feel much like Harad, I feel a slight sense of bias against a better coach, but I do thank you for your insight into a potential bias towards the experienced one. If nothing else, it makes me feel better about my preference to KICK the ball away to start most games. |
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Join the wait-list. Watch the action. Leave the Empire. Come to Bretonnia! |
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fly
Joined: Aug 02, 2003
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May 18, 2020 - 00:26 |
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foul |
_________________
I play for fun. I play to win.
Do you play CPOMB 'cause you can't win otherwise?
No, that's a rhetorical question. |
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PurpleChest
Joined: Oct 25, 2003
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| ClayInfinity wrote: | | everything he said.... |
Spot on, and it was first to 3.
While the topic has been interesting I want to circle back to the OP.
A few things come to mind:
You utterly ignore that FF is a PENALTY for wining as well as a reward. It counts for TV so two teams of 1300 TV with one on FF 13 and the other on 7 will see the lower FF team have skills to make that TV gap up.
If losing the fame worries you then you can buy 2 assistants and 2 cheerleaders (only 40 TV, probably less than your 'worryingly low' FF saves you) and pretty much win the 6 and 8 results no matter the fame.
You say 'oh no the KO table favours the kicker more', which i don't accept, but even if I did the Kick Off event itself favours the receiver massively, you never seem to count this in in any way.
You keep telling people your BB ability isnt relevant. Well, your BB experience and ability ARE relevant. i can, and have, watched a couple of your replays and your play is poor, your experience level low and a lot of the trouble your teams end up in on kick offs is avoidable with better set ups and more experience. Maybe seek to find how others deal with the outcomes you cannot rather than decide they must be wrong and bad because after 100 games you havnt dealt effectively with them yet.
Your races of choice are not ideal for newer coaches, and while your record is pretty good for a newer player is has been achieved largely by playing people with less experience and who are not themselves especially good at BB. That is a tough way to learn better BB play, though I absolutely respect that personal morale is hugely important, but could you maybe not feel as validated by playing slightly tougher opponents but with slightly better and easier to learn races?
Look, I'm not saying BB is perfect, or balanced, or that the KO table doesnt make us all groan and wail at times.
And for sure it can be improved, of course. Everything can except bacon.
But until someone asks you to redesign BB, might it not be an idea to listen to others as to how to deal with the things you are finding frustrating? Might not this all be a little bit of 'Waaagh, i lost'? |
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Barbarus hic ego sum, quia non intelligor illis -Ovid
I am a barbarian here because i am not understood by anyone |
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mekutata
Joined: May 03, 2015
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May 18, 2020 - 02:45 |
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fidius
Joined: Jun 17, 2011
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May 18, 2020 - 04:42 |
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The biggest flaw of BB is that you can easily exploit the supposed "on purpose" imbalances once you learn what they are. If you're someone who walks into every game situation wondering if the field is tilted in favour of your opponent, you'll find BB (and especially BB with strangers on the internet) hard to tolerate. Because until you exploit the imbalances yourself, the field is, in fact, tilted -- unless your opponents are focused on good-natured fun over winning, in which case the game imbalances are working as intended. |
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PainState
Joined: Apr 04, 2007
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May 18, 2020 - 05:02 |
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At least we dont play with spiked balls in normal games. |
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PainState
Joined: Apr 04, 2007
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| Posted:
May 18, 2020 - 05:10 |
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| Balle2000 wrote: | | The rules of any game will "punish" any new player by the very nature of their existence, and the new player's lack of knowledge of their intricacies and implications. |
There is a lot of truth here.
I remember when I played Settlers of Cattan the first time against 3 experience players at GenCon way back in the day. right when I though I finally got a handle on how this game played and figured out the rules the game was over.
All games are that way the first time you play them, especially against experienced players. Do you think playing Blood Bowl on FUMBBL would be different? |
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garyt1
Joined: Mar 12, 2011
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May 18, 2020 - 05:50 |
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The KO table is a bit messed up times, but it can favour either side.
If you are worried about the lack of fan factor you can spend some TV on an assistant coach and a cheerleader instead. You can have a significant TV in fan factor and still might not gain a fame bonus.
In terms of new players - Yes it would be nice if there was a way to bolster new players chances in some games. But generally people are not up for giving penalties for doing well. |
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“A wise man can learn more from a foolish question than a fool can learn from a wise answer.” |
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