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MattDakka



Joined: Oct 09, 2007

Post   Posted: Jun 21, 2020 - 15:30 Reply with quote Back to top

How much should a Bull Centaur without Sprint be priced?

Would 120,000 be a right price?


Last edited by MattDakka on Jul 03, 2020 - 13:12; edited 1 time in total
Nelphine



Joined: Apr 01, 2011

Post   Posted: Jun 21, 2020 - 15:47 Reply with quote Back to top

Hard to say. Arguably the chaos dwarf blockers are underpriced, which may mean that bull centaurs are actually overpriced. I don't feel that's a good philosophy, but core rosters seems to embrace it.

I've done a lot of work about pricing, found here https://fumbbl.com/p/group?op=view&group=12181. But there are enough changes to baseline pricing that you couldn't simply go by it, unless you also change the rest of the positions in the league.
tussock



Joined: May 29, 2011

Post   Posted: Jul 03, 2020 - 09:21 Reply with quote Back to top

If you want to take off Sprint, give them something else about as useful and keep them at 130k.

120k would be right for those skills and stats, but not for that team to get a ST 4 player.

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Joost



Joined: Mar 17, 2014

Post   Posted: Jul 03, 2020 - 09:36 Reply with quote Back to top

tussock wrote:
If you want to take off Sprint, give them something else about as useful and keep them at 130k.

120k would be right for those skills and stats, but not for that team to get a ST 4 player.


I think Juggernaut would make sense narratively, but would be too good for that price. Very long legs maybe as a less efficient alternative that might fit the character a bit?
Garion



Joined: Aug 19, 2009

Post   Posted: Jul 03, 2020 - 09:59 Reply with quote Back to top

It's correct.

80k, +30k (ma6), +10(thick skull), +20k(sprint),+20k(surefeet), = 160k 60/2= 30, 130k

Without sprint = 120k

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MattDakka



Joined: Oct 09, 2007

Post   Posted: Jul 03, 2020 - 13:11 Reply with quote Back to top

Thank you very much!
I guessed it was 120k, but I wanted to have a confirm according to official player pricing system.
I think that Bull Centaurs can't lose Sure Feet, because, as Garion explained in his Zoat team design, Sure Feet represents the bigger stability granted by the four legs:
"Sure Feet was given to the player because they move around on 4 legs like a Bull Centaur".
Therefore, since my intention is to nerf them, removing Sprint is a logical consequence.
Juggernaut would make sense as skill on them, but it would buff the Bull Centaurs.
About Very Long Legs: Hthark doesn't have Very Long Legs and since Bull Centaurs don't mutate (they have already been blessed by Hashut) Very Long Legs would not fit them thematically.
Garion



Joined: Aug 19, 2009

Post   Posted: Jul 03, 2020 - 15:56 Reply with quote Back to top

Why do you want to nerf the bull centaur? They are the fun part of the roster

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MattDakka



Joined: Oct 09, 2007

Post   Posted: Jul 03, 2020 - 16:05 Reply with quote Back to top

Because the roster is too strong as it is.
They are not supposed to be ball carriers, but Blitzers, yet they are used often as ball carriers.
A ST 4 ball carrier who can easily blitz single-handedly, dodge (with Break Tackle) and move up to 9 squares on a bash team is clearly too strong, and that even before considering possible stat boosts. Also, 2 Bull Centaurs are awesome safeties on defence, being able to cover a great range on their own (most ball carriers are just ST 3).
Some time ago I talked with ArrestedDevelopment and he suggested to give them AG 1 (that way using them as ball carriers would be discouraged).
Once they are caged, it's nigh on impossible to sack them even with leapers (ST 4 + 2 Guards means ST 6, and Bull Centaurs tend to be blodgers after a while).
Garion



Joined: Aug 19, 2009

Post   Posted: Jul 03, 2020 - 16:58 Reply with quote Back to top

Too strong by what metric? They dominate no environment. Not TT resurrection, not perpetual leagues, not FUMBBL tournaments.

Bull Centaurs are definitely great players after 2 skills, and they get even better on 3 and 4. But they are the only fun part of that team now that trolls are no longer part of it.

If you want a nerf why not look at the undercosted Chaos Dwarves - they are incredibly boring, very oppressive and incredible value for money?

Nerfing the Bull Centaur that way just makes the team more boring...

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MattDakka



Joined: Oct 09, 2007

Post   Posted: Jul 03, 2020 - 17:03 Reply with quote Back to top

I would nerf the Chaos Dwarfs as well by removing Tackle from them and pricing them 60k, but I was sure about that price, this is why I didn't talk about them in this thread.
Anyway, don't worry, I'm talking for the sake of academic discussion, the official roster will not be suddenly nerfed just because I discuss about it. Very Happy
fidius



Joined: Jun 17, 2011

Post   Posted: Jul 03, 2020 - 18:04 Reply with quote Back to top

There is no more odious team to play against than CDs. That alone is reason to look at changing them IMO.

I agree re: Sprint. Our friend HM would say Sprint makes BCs "overdescribed". It's too bad there isn't an offense-only version of Block, as you say they are Blitzers first and ought to be best at that out of the box. Slann Blitzers have the same problem.

CDs themselves ought to be be called Immortals, and cost more. A version of half-Tackle would also help. Add 0-2 Underworld Goblins, and swap out the Mino for a Goblin Cannon SW, and you've got yourself a team that is much less boring.
MattDakka



Joined: Oct 09, 2007

Post   Posted: Jul 03, 2020 - 18:23 Reply with quote Back to top

Yes, I share the "odious" feeling of playing against the CDs, really a noob-friendly team.
Using Goblins would be against the fluff, Chaos Dwarfs use only Hobgoblins on their teams after Orc & Goblins rebelled against them.

By the way, with a double Bull Centaurs could still take Sprint, but that would require sacrificing Dodge (or taking Dodge and hope for another double).
For sure, their build would be delayed, so, if they rolled roll a stat boost they would not be as powerful.

If boring roster is an issue, then Hobgoblin Runners and/or Sneaky Gits could add some variety.
Garion



Joined: Aug 19, 2009

Post   Posted: Jul 03, 2020 - 18:37 Reply with quote Back to top

again though, the boring issue does not stem from the Bulls, they are the most fun thing about the team, by miles. Dwarves are the anti fun part.

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MattDakka



Joined: Oct 09, 2007

Post   Posted: Jul 03, 2020 - 19:12 Reply with quote Back to top

I agree with you that Bull Centaurs are fun. They can get too strong, though, so in my opinion they should be nerfed. They would just need an extra double with my nerf (1 to take Dodge, 1 to take Sprint), so they could still be fun but they would have to delay their build by 1 skill.
And yes I would nerf the Blockers, as I said, I agree with you they are not fun.
I love Chaos Dwarfs' lore (I even wanted to collect a CD WHFB army in the past) but I find the roster boring and anti-fun. I find it boring even when I play it as coach.
I would have more fun if the team were nerfed (I know it may sound weird, but it's what I think).
Even if I like a specific race, I don't want it too strong/boring to play, both coaches should have fun in my opinion.
Nelphine



Joined: Apr 01, 2011

Post   Posted: Jul 03, 2020 - 19:50 Reply with quote Back to top

if it matters, I consider bull centaurs overpriced even with sprint. the only reason they're 130k is because the blockers are underpriced. realistically, i would increase the blockers to 80k. (yes, i realize this impacts the normal dwarf rosters as well.) the centaurs simply aren't the problem on the team, and removing sprint really isn't going to do anything about that - even if you make them cheaper.

That STILL leaves you with a str 4 dodging ball carrier ... who can move 8! thats still too strong. the difference between 8 and 9 is simply not that important (as seen by the success of elven - all types - catchers)

If you remove sure feet, that would be an actual nerf to the team, but I agree it wouldn't fit the fluff. If you are stuck on fluff, the only reasonable nerf is to either remove sprint and NOT change the cost of the bull centaur OR increase the cost of the blockers.
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