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MattDakka



Joined: Oct 09, 2007

Post   Posted: Jul 06, 2020 - 20:55 Reply with quote Back to top

I think it could be interesting to try the Season rule in the Black Box (just a suggestion, not demanding Christer to absolutely implement it, but even simply discussing it could be nice).
A Season could last 25 games, that means that, after 25 games played by a team the Season ends and you have to re-draft the players as described in the rules.

Why 25 games?

I suggested 25 games because it's exactly the same number of games each Box Trophy team must play to finish its run.
That way the Season rule would not interfere with the Box Trophy teams' run. It could be adjusted accordingly in case the Box Trophy changed the number of games required.

Also, 25 games seem to be a right number, not too few, not too many, but feel free to suggest a different number, providing an explanation.
ArthurWynne



Joined: Sep 23, 2015

Post   Posted: Jul 06, 2020 - 21:16 Reply with quote Back to top

In the same spirit of discussing possibilities without talking as if something must or must not happen... if FUMBBL were to implement seasons in Box I think your suggestion sounds like an excellent way to do it, probably the best way. But I don't really see the point of doing that. What benefits do you see seasons adding to Box, or what problems do you see it solving?

As far as I can tell it would be the death knell of all the big and old teams, for no particular benefit.
MattDakka



Joined: Oct 09, 2007

Post   Posted: Jul 06, 2020 - 21:25 Reply with quote Back to top

The benefit of implementing Season rule is adding a soft Ageing, to induce teams having fewer developed players, therefore making the games potentially less unbalanced.
Season rule would affect more evenly all teams no matter their TV, currently a very high TV bash team (Chaos and Nurgle usually) could be monoactivated and could not suffer much damage playing often vs underdogs unable to hurt its players, or not permanently.
As the players get skills and stats with synergies the game gets more unbalanced (think of Clawmbtackle spam at high TV, for example, or natural one turners).
Anyway, personally I think that a Season should last minimum 25 games, so Trophy teams would not be affected by it, but maybe even 30 games could be ok.
I'm not sure, but a Season lasting more than 30 games could not be very effective.

If people want to play big and old teams, they could do in Ranked, as many coaches loving high TV very developed teams already do.
This is why I suggested to implement the rule just in the Box.
ph0enyx13



Joined: Nov 14, 2015

Post   Posted: Jul 06, 2020 - 22:09 Reply with quote Back to top

A 25 game season, if I did the math right, would put a lot of teams in the 1600-1800ish tv range. You get 1000 + 10 per game so a terrible player would have 1250 + 5 for every td and/or cas so let's say you average 1 td and 1 cas per game that is 1500 + 190 treasury. Matt himself averages 1.23 tds so that is about 150 and 1.86 cas so so that is about 230 and Matt is good with treasury so 190 there. And the average Dakka team would be 1820ish at the start of the new season + any fan factor

Edit

I did one of my own teams too as a lower bound team. I have 24 games played, 24 tds, and 49 cas and 70k in the bank. That would put me at 1685 plus fanfactor and whatever gold, td, and cas I made in my last game.


Last edited by ph0enyx13 on Jul 06, 2020 - 22:19; edited 1 time in total
MattDakka



Joined: Oct 09, 2007

Post   Posted: Jul 06, 2020 - 22:16 Reply with quote Back to top

So, would 25 game-long Season be ok in your opinion?
I suggested 25 because of the Trophy, but what's your conclusion?

edit: the 1600-1700 TV range immediately after Season would be satisfactory?
I think it's a good range, in my opinion, mid-high TV.
Many races can be played at that TV, not just the low TV tier 1.


Last edited by MattDakka on Jul 06, 2020 - 22:22; edited 1 time in total
ClayInfinity



Joined: Aug 15, 2003

Post   Posted: Jul 06, 2020 - 22:16 Reply with quote Back to top

I love the idea of seasons, but given the Box is the land of min/max'ers and that lean is the way to win, shouldnt the 25 game season rule be in Ranked instead?
MattDakka



Joined: Oct 09, 2007

Post   Posted: Jul 06, 2020 - 22:18 Reply with quote Back to top

In Ranked many people play old very high TV teams, they could be upset if Season rule were adopted there.
Personally, I don't play in Ranked, so either implementing there Season or not would not affect me, but I don't want to make Ranked coaches angry.
I would just like to try the Season rule in the Box, at least for a while, without disturbing Ranked coaches.
I could change my mind about it after trying it, but I will never know for sure without actual experience.
ph0enyx13



Joined: Nov 14, 2015

Post   Posted: Jul 06, 2020 - 22:21 Reply with quote Back to top

MattDakka wrote:
So, would 25 game-long Season be ok in your opinion?
I suggested 25 because of the Trophy, but what's your conclusion?


I play low tv and roll new teams a lot anyway so I wouldn't be the expert on if the 1700ish tv range is the best spot for box. I do like the idea though that after x number games you can fix a crippled team though the redraft
MattDakka



Joined: Oct 09, 2007

Post   Posted: Jul 06, 2020 - 22:25 Reply with quote Back to top

1700 is still a TV range where Clawmb is not yet spammed, so it sounds good to me.
Also, even slow starting team such as Chaos and Nurgle at 1700 are strong enough, even if they are not yet at the max of their potential.

I suggested 25 game-long Season because the Trophy teams play 25 games each, but I think that the best way to choose the number of games of a Season would be gathering data to know at which TV as many as possible races have the closest win % amongst them, and then using a Season number of games meant to achieve that TV.

For example, let's say that 21 on 24 teams have the closest win rate at 1600 (I'm using 1600 just as example) then the number of matches per Season should try to keep the teams close to TV 1600 after the Season ends.


Last edited by MattDakka on Jul 07, 2020 - 13:01; edited 3 times in total
ph0enyx13



Joined: Nov 14, 2015

Post   Posted: Jul 06, 2020 - 22:28 Reply with quote Back to top

I'm not the expert on it. But a 1685 balance to rebuild my team is more than enough to rebuy all my plays as my orcs are only 1560 with 7ff which is free so 1490 in cost. And I rarely play too far above that
ClayInfinity



Joined: Aug 15, 2003

Post   Posted: Jul 06, 2020 - 22:31 Reply with quote Back to top

Check out the SWL, the longest running league on fumbbl and we currently have been running the seasons rule (a season is defined as 10 games) for some time. The Premier League division sits regularly in the 1700-1800 TV range.

https://fumbbl.com/p/group?op=view&group=647
MattDakka



Joined: Oct 09, 2007

Post   Posted: Jul 06, 2020 - 22:32 Reply with quote Back to top

And please notice, I don't want to make any race unplayable post-Season, I just want to make as many as possible teams playable post-Season without facing frustrating match-ups vs very high TV teams with an underdog team.
koadah



Joined: Mar 30, 2005

Post   Posted: Jul 06, 2020 - 23:06 Reply with quote Back to top

As Ranked & Box share tourneys wouldn't seasons need to be the same length in both?

Ranked

Box

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MattDakka



Joined: Oct 09, 2007

Post   Posted: Jul 06, 2020 - 23:16 Reply with quote Back to top

Yes I think so for consistency, but I suspect Ranked coaches would not be happy with Seasons, that's why I suggested them just for the Box.
Joost



Joined: Mar 17, 2014

Post   Posted: Jul 06, 2020 - 23:18 Reply with quote Back to top

I understand the idea, but it would affect my play in the box; I prefer Box play over Ranked by a wide margin, and I enjoy high TV plus the creation of tourney worthy teams. That is already much harder in Box than in Ranked, but with Seasons I can imagine it would be even more of a disadvantage. Perhaps if the Box gets its own Major(s) again?
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