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Doofr



Joined: Nov 04, 2015

Post   Posted: Sep 10, 2020 - 19:57 Reply with quote Back to top

MattDakka wrote:
I don't find NAF balanced at all. Some rosters are top tier 1 (and mostly played), other ones are too weak.
Some tournaments buff certain races with extra skills and Star Players, but that is not true balance.
The true balance would be remaking all the rosters from scratch and balance them for 1100 TV range. NAF bonuses can't make up for the fact that some rosters start top tier 1, other ones tier 2, and other ones tier 3.
You can bolt on skills and Star Players, but it's not effective enough.
If you have a race car (top tier 1) competing vs a city car (tier 2) improving a bit the engine of the city car (adding extra skills and Star Players) will not be enough to balance them.
The starting chassis (roster) is very important for balance.


All coachs who want be realy competitive in NAF take tier 1 roster , so take a tier 1 roster and compare your result to them.

And its anyway more balanced and competitive than the black box. There is no question about it.

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thoralf



Joined: Mar 06, 2008

Post   Posted: Sep 10, 2020 - 20:13 Reply with quote Back to top

MattDakka wrote:
The starting chassis (roster) is very important for balance.


Do it, Matt. Just do it.

Don't let your dreams be dreams. Yesterday you said tomorrow. So just do it. Make your dreams come true. Just do it.

Some people dream of balance. While you're gonna wake up and work hard at it. Nothing is impossible.

You should get to the point where anyone else would quit, and you're not going to stop there.

What are you waiting for?

Do it. Just do it. Yes you can. Just do it. If you're tired of asking for sammiches.

Stop giving up.

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MattDakka



Joined: Oct 09, 2007

Post   Posted: Sep 10, 2020 - 20:16 Reply with quote Back to top

I consider really boring to play only 4-5 top tier 1 races, with more than 20 available and I'm not interested in playing Wood Elves, Undead, Dark Elves (insert top tier 1 team here) only, and not every coach is going to play tier 1: when a top coach with tier 1 plays vs a noob with tier 3 there is no contest. Also, since there are so few skills, the rosters are very similar, another boring aspect.
Moreover, playing a team with resurrection is not normal.
You don't risk to leap into cages with your Wardancer as easily as when you play in a perpetual league with progression and you need your Wardancer healthy for the next game. This is against the nature of BB. I understand that it works well in order to play some games in 2 days without the hassle of managing rosters but it's not a thing I like, and not balanced.
All rosters should be balanced, so, no matter what roster your opponent chooses, you will not have an advantage/disadvantage.
This can't happen in NAF. Even if I played only tier 1, I would face sooner or later a guy with tier 2 or worse and the game would not be balanced.
koadah



Joined: Mar 30, 2005

Post   Posted: Sep 10, 2020 - 20:29 Reply with quote Back to top

It would be nicely balanced if you played NAF style and only allowed coaches to use humans.

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Nelphine



Joined: Apr 01, 2011

Post   Posted: Sep 10, 2020 - 20:31 Reply with quote Back to top

Thoralf, i actually DID try to balance all the teams. There was no interest. I've asked lots of people to look at it, even managed to get a shoutout on the podcast, but only had about 4 people talk to me about it. I DO believe I've got a better balanced set of rosters than what exists in core (ignoring the bb2020 update, as that changes the ruleset, so obviously my work will need updates later to reflect that.)

I asked MattDakka to weigh in, and he didn't try to work with balancing the teams, he wanted to change the ruleset itself (which is also valid, and which he has put a lot of thought into).
MattDakka



Joined: Oct 09, 2007

Post   Posted: Sep 10, 2020 - 20:48 Reply with quote Back to top

koadah wrote:
It would be nicely balanced if you played NAF style and only allowed coaches to use humans.

That, or even rotating the races.
So, one tournament could allow only Humans, another one could allow only Orcs, another one Wood Elves, another one Goblins only and so on, that way a coach would have to be versatile.

Nelphine: I considered how to change some rosters, not just to change the dice mechanics, but I can't play them.
It's hard to balance rosters without data, and to have data many games and people are required, I can have ideas but I can't create people.
I would remove Tackle from Dwarfs and Chaos Dwarfs, swap Dodge with Wrestle on Amazons, remove Sprint from Bull Centaurs, I have ideas about rosters, not just about the d6 system.
For sure, considering that now teams are not going to develop a lot due to Seasons, it would be nice to boost some tier 2 rosters.
As I said, there is no point in playing Chaos, Nurgle and Vampires for 15 games then trimming the roster due to Season.
If the teams must be trimmed then their starting rosters should be buffed a bit, or Dwarfs will be the most played race, as some people suspect.


Last edited by MattDakka on Sep 10, 2020 - 20:57; edited 4 times in total
koadah



Joined: Mar 30, 2005

Post   Posted: Sep 10, 2020 - 20:49 Reply with quote Back to top

Nelphine wrote:
Thoralf, i actually DID try to balance all the teams. There was no interest. I've asked lots of people to look at it, even managed to get a shoutout on the podcast, but only had about 4 people talk to me about it. I DO believe I've got a better balanced set of rosters than what exists in core (ignoring the bb2020 update, as that changes the ruleset, so obviously my work will need updates later to reflect that.)

I asked MattDakka to weigh in, and he didn't try to work with balancing the teams, he wanted to change the ruleset itself (which is also valid, and which he has put a lot of thought into).


Where is it?

I don't suppose you are imterested in doing Secret League Twisted Evil

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Nelphine



Joined: Apr 01, 2011

Post   Posted: Sep 10, 2020 - 21:13 Reply with quote Back to top

https://fumbbl.com/p/group&group=12181&op=view

And yes, it accomodates secret league (or any new rosters). However, what it shows is that a lot of teams in Secret League would need to be changed, and some, like Sisters of Sigmar, simply wouldn't be realistic trying to follow those rules. You would HAVE to give up some starting skills for those kinds of rosters (in much the same way that you would probably not want to keep dwarf blockers with tackle in these rules.)

I did talk briefly to Garion about the idea, but the rules are VERY crunchy, and would require a huge revamp of the Secret League so the conversation didn't go very far.
koadah



Joined: Mar 30, 2005

Post   Posted: Sep 10, 2020 - 21:27 Reply with quote Back to top

MattDakka wrote:
koadah wrote:
It would be nicely balanced if you played NAF style and only allowed coaches to use humans.

That, or even rotating the races.
So, one tournament could allow only Humans, another one could allow only Orcs, another one Wood Elves, another one Goblins only and so on, that way a coach would have to be versatile.


Heh heh. The Mirror Series. Mr. Green

I'd prefer it at a higher TV than NAF though.
e.g. starting at 1400-1500 and rising to say 1600-1700. Including skills that is.

Does fixed progression currently allow us enough skills for that?

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Wolvassa



Joined: Dec 23, 2019

Post   Posted: Sep 10, 2020 - 21:33 Reply with quote Back to top

On the subject of the scheduler, assuming it still works as described here: https://fumbbl.com/p/notes?op=view&id=522 it will have to change slightly anyway. This section doesn’t really make sense to me with seasons:

Quote:
'A list of all possible matches is generated for all the teams activated by every pair of coaches. Determining if a match is allowed involves looking at the TV difference and the number of games played by the teams. The following method is used:

Below 3 games played, max TV difference allowed is within 10%
For 3 to 9 games played, max TV difference allowed is within 15%
For 10 to 29 games played, max TV difference allowed is (15 + (games - 10) * 2)%
For 30 or more games, any opponent is allowed'


This could be changed to something like:
Quote:
‘A list of all possible matches is generated for all the teams activated by every pair of coaches. Determining if a match is allowed involves looking at the number of games played this season by the teams. The following method is used:

Below 3 games played, max games played difference allowed is 1
For 3 to 9 games played, max games played difference allowed is 2
For 10 or more games played, max games played difference allowed is 3’


This would retain TV based scheduling as the core of the system, but the available matches would be based on games played in the season. The numbers could be tweaked slightly if this narrows down the available matches too much, or if people get annoyed playing games with S1G1 teams vs S2G2 teams. Or even if we find that there are enough options to narrow it and not result in failed draws. This would allow wider TV differences than rookie protection would allow, but prefer to avoid them.

(I appreciate others have said both similar things and good points in favour of alternatives, I just wanted to stick my oar in and try to formalise it in my head)
ph0enyx13



Joined: Nov 14, 2015

Post   Posted: Sep 10, 2020 - 21:52 Reply with quote Back to top

I think it is weird. If I get a big tv gap in match making I am usually annoyed if I am the underdog, but if there is a big tv gap in league it is less annoying. Or in the case of rez, I actually like using star players. I think the gap is less bad in league because the number of games played being similar means TV optimization is similar even if TV is not. Like someone with a high tv team in league has it due to expensive players and not due to more good skills. Whereas in matchmaking the TV tends to be high and the skills tend to be highly optimized with things like clawpomb and stat freaks.
thoralf



Joined: Mar 06, 2008

Post   Posted: Sep 10, 2020 - 22:42 Reply with quote Back to top

Nelphine wrote:
I asked MattDakka to weigh in, and he didn't try to work with balancing the teams, he wanted to change the ruleset itself (which is also valid, and which he has put a lot of thought into).


I am shocked. SHOCKED!

So, Matt - when will we see your ruleset?

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mrt1212



Joined: Feb 26, 2013

Post   Posted: Sep 10, 2020 - 23:11 Reply with quote Back to top

Nelphine wrote:
Thoralf, i actually DID try to balance all the teams. There was no interest. I've asked lots of people to look at it, even managed to get a shoutout on the podcast, but only had about 4 people talk to me about it. I DO believe I've got a better balanced set of rosters than what exists in core (ignoring the bb2020 update, as that changes the ruleset, so obviously my work will need updates later to reflect that.)

I asked MattDakka to weigh in, and he didn't try to work with balancing the teams, he wanted to change the ruleset itself (which is also valid, and which he has put a lot of thought into).


The Tragedy of Pet Rulesets
AiThebuffycat



Joined: Mar 26, 2018

Post   Posted: Sep 10, 2020 - 23:24 Reply with quote Back to top

@nelphine I never saw your ruleset though it seems pretty cool from my reading, I'll be playing some with my friends in that ruleset.
koadah



Joined: Mar 30, 2005

Post   Posted: Sep 11, 2020 - 01:39 Reply with quote Back to top

Nelphine wrote:
https://fumbbl.com/p/group&group=12181&op=view

And yes, it accomodates secret league (or any new rosters). However, what it shows is that a lot of teams in Secret League would need to be changed, and some, like Sisters of Sigmar, simply wouldn't be realistic trying to follow those rules. You would HAVE to give up some starting skills for those kinds of rosters (in much the same way that you would probably not want to keep dwarf blockers with tackle in these rules.)

I did talk briefly to Garion about the idea, but the rules are VERY crunchy, and would require a huge revamp of the Secret League so the conversation didn't go very far.


Am I missing something?

This doesn't look like a ruleset. It looks like rules for building rosters.

I'm not surprised that there wasn't much interest. It looks as though it is less about playing blood bowl but is more about building infrastructure.

Even if the teams are balanced at TV1000 will they still be balanced at 1200, 1500, 1750 or 2000.

I guess that is why balance is never right. Wink

I thought that it was going to be like Narrow Tiers. Don't start Twisted Evil

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