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Verminardo



Joined: Sep 27, 2006

Post   Posted: Aug 07, 2020 - 22:42 Reply with quote Back to top

Thanks for your thoughts, Christer, that all sounds very sensible. I'm actually quite excited to see the end of the Age of Bloat, as someone who plays 2-3 matches a week, this will suit me much better. R and B merger is a long time coming, maybe call the Box teams Hardmode not Hardcore? Very Happy

"Not overnight" is a pretty open statement, I imagine this will be at the very least a few months will it not? So if the rules hit the stores for Christmas, we will be in spring 2021 before the new rules are live, won't we? I'm kind of thinking, why not make Trophy Season 4 a sprint season? Then wrap it up and start Season 5 when we migrate to the new rules? Personally I probably won't be able to finish a run in half a year but there are a lot of coaches who will. Smile
MattDakka



Joined: Oct 09, 2007

Post   Posted: Aug 07, 2020 - 22:43 Reply with quote Back to top

In my opinion is very simple and logical:

- normal team plays vs normal team with Gamefinder;
- hardcore team plays vs hardcore teams with scheduler.

Ranked teams can choose if they will be normal or hardcore, without possibility of changing once they have chosen.

if normal team can choose to play with GF and scheduler, this is not fair for hardcore teams, which can play only with scheduler but can face the normal teams as well.
The Trophy is the only reason to play hardcore over a normal team, otherwise, it's more advantageous to play normal teams due to two ways of finding games (GF and scheduler).


Last edited by MattDakka on Aug 07, 2020 - 22:51; edited 1 time in total
HaruHaru



Joined: Sep 05, 2019

Post   Posted: Aug 07, 2020 - 22:45 Reply with quote Back to top

I agree with MattDakka, I'd like to keep BB and R separate. Picking vs. scheduler, not both.

Edit: But then again, I don't really play BB or R much these days anyway so my perspective may be flawed.
koadah



Joined: Mar 30, 2005

Post   Posted: Aug 07, 2020 - 22:47 Reply with quote Back to top

Options, options, options.

Options for handling seasons. e.g. managing how big teams are likely to get.
Options for wackiness e.g. different kick-off tables
Options for attrition.

The proposals sound pretty reasonable.

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MattDakka



Joined: Oct 09, 2007

Post   Posted: Aug 07, 2020 - 22:49 Reply with quote Back to top

And please, before I get misunderstood by anybody: I'm not using a demanding tone, just trying to explain what I think in a clear (hopefully) way, this is I why use short sentences, not because I'm trying to give orders to Christer. Very Happy
Verminardo



Joined: Sep 27, 2006

Post   Posted: Aug 07, 2020 - 22:52 Reply with quote Back to top

MattDakka wrote:
if normal team can choose to play with GF and scheduler, this is not fair for hardcore teams, which can play only with scheduler but can face the normal teams as well.


That's how hardmodes work. I like it. Smile
Christer



Joined: Aug 02, 2003

Post   Posted: Aug 07, 2020 - 22:56
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I hear what you're saying MattDakka, and it's a consideration I made. It would be pointless to do the joining of the divisions if there was no cross-play and I would simply leave it as-is with the two separate divisions. Easy enough to open up a B -> R division if that was what I wanted to do.
MattDakka



Joined: Oct 09, 2007

Post   Posted: Aug 07, 2020 - 22:56 Reply with quote Back to top

@Verminardo: the fact I can play vs normal and hardcore team still doesn't make it fair.
I'd like to play vs hardcore-only teams because I don't play with GF, therefore I should be able not to play vs teams which picked their games.
If you want to do it, ok, but it should not be the rule applied to everybody.


@Christer: I would do this instead: not moving B to R, but R to B, i.e. merging Ranked and Box teams together in a single competitive division (C division or whatever name, MM division or Ranked MM probably would be the best name because even newcomers would understand it) where game are arranged exclusively by scheduler.

Gamefinder would be used only to allow people play unranked games with no CR (could be called Unranked division so newcomers can easily understand it).


Last edited by MattDakka on Aug 07, 2020 - 23:05; edited 1 time in total
Garion



Joined: Aug 19, 2009

Post   Posted: Aug 07, 2020 - 23:05 Reply with quote Back to top

I think what you may be missing here dakka is - if seasons are only 20 games, there's not going to be much room for team pimping. So the advantage (if there even is one) of playing using game finder will be minimal.

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MattDakka



Joined: Oct 09, 2007

Post   Posted: Aug 07, 2020 - 23:07 Reply with quote Back to top

Yes, I said that some post ago, seasonal redraft can keep teams in check, but a team could be played for 10 or 15 games with GF then activated with scheduler.
Not a super advantage, but still an advantage, maybe not in term of pimping, but fewer injuries suffered or hard match-ups avoided.
Since the team can be used for purpose of gaining CR, any advantage should be eliminated, no matter if big or small.
This is what logic suggests.
Really, if people like the GF, they can still play with it, just, without gaining CR.
If they want CR, they must earn it with blind matchmaking.


Last edited by MattDakka on Aug 07, 2020 - 23:10; edited 1 time in total
Balle2000



Joined: Sep 25, 2008

Post   Posted: Aug 07, 2020 - 23:10 Reply with quote Back to top

Garion wrote:
if seasons are only 20 games, there's not going to be much room for team pimping

Good point. If seasons are around that length, there might not be a need for resitrictions at all. Just let anyone use both the scheduler and game finder, put labels next to the two team types, and take it from there.

And a general note: I really hope that CR won't stand in the way of moving the community closer together.


Last edited by Balle2000 on Aug 07, 2020 - 23:14; edited 2 times in total
Grod



Joined: Sep 30, 2003

Post   Posted: Aug 07, 2020 - 23:10 Reply with quote Back to top

I imagine the *Hard Core* teams will be eligible for ALL official tournaments, while the non hard core teams will be restricted from a couple of Hard Core only ones? Either way, Seasons makes it easier to keep all manner of teams going for a long duration.

Possibly it's worth more thinking about whether 20 games is the right amount, or, or 15 or 10 even. In SWL we use 7 game seasons for example. Longer seasons has a draw back on mushy teams that need to rebuild more often - they might not last for 20 games!

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Nelphine



Joined: Apr 01, 2011

Post   Posted: Aug 07, 2020 - 23:18 Reply with quote Back to top

Right but if non hardcore teams are disallowed from tournaments, then teams created without that restriction should have the option to become hardcore, even if it's only a one time option
Garion



Joined: Aug 19, 2009

Post   Posted: Aug 07, 2020 - 23:22 Reply with quote Back to top

MattDakka wrote:
Yes, I said that some post ago, seasonal redraft can keep teams in check, but a team could be played for 10 or 15 games with GF then activated with scheduler.
Not a super advantage, but still an advantage, maybe not in term of pimping, but fewer injuries suffered or hard match-ups avoided.
Since the team can be used for purpose of gaining CR, any advantage should be eliminated, no matter if big or small.
This is what logic suggests.
Really, if people like the GF, they can still play with it, just, without gaining CR.
If they want CR, they must earn it with blind matchmaking.


I understand your point. Ultimately I don't care enough. Id rather CR was got rid of entirely along with win ratio stats on the coach home page etc.. I think all of it breeds negativity. So although I understand you want to keep things pure (like lord voldermort did) I just don't think it matters at all. If people want an advantage who really cares ... good for them let then crack on.

As an aside I'd like to be able to black list 2 coaches so I never had to play them, because I find it so unpleasant. Once your black list is full you can remove a coach name but you need to wait 30 days before adding a new name to it. Thst way it won't be open to abuse.

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Last edited by Garion on Aug 07, 2020 - 23:27; edited 1 time in total
koadah



Joined: Mar 30, 2005

Post   Posted: Aug 07, 2020 - 23:24 Reply with quote Back to top

Do seasons have to be the same length?

e.g. A long first season to match a BBT season, then shorter maybe 10/15 games after that.
That way you do not have to cut teams back as far and "lucky" teams can't get so far ahead.

Note: Only BBT teams have to wait the full 20 games before re-buying.

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