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Garion



Joined: Aug 19, 2009

Post   Posted: Aug 07, 2020 - 23:24 Reply with quote Back to top

Grod wrote:

Possibly it's worth more thinking about whether 20 games is the right amount, or, or 15 or 10 even. In SWL we use 7 game seasons for example. Longer seasons has a draw back on mushy teams that need to rebuild more often - they might not last for 20 games!


Christer said you can opt to end a season and redraft anytime. 20 is just the max. So this isn't a problem.

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Garion



Joined: Aug 19, 2009

Post   Posted: Aug 07, 2020 - 23:25 Reply with quote Back to top

koadah wrote:
Do seasons have to be the same length?

e.g. A long first season to match a BBT season, then shorter maybe 10/15 games after that.
That way you do not have to cut teams back as far and "lucky" teams can't get so far ahead.

Note: Only BBT teams have to wait the full 20 games before re-buying.
see my reply above to grod ^

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koadah



Joined: Mar 30, 2005

Post   Posted: Aug 07, 2020 - 23:28 Reply with quote Back to top

Nelphine wrote:
Right but if non hardcore teams are disallowed from tournaments, then teams created without that restriction should have the option to become hardcore, even if it's only a one time option


You can't "become hardcore". Smile

There should be a couple of hardcore only tournaments. Though Box didn't get them so hardcore only probably won't either.

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koadah



Joined: Mar 30, 2005

Post   Posted: Aug 07, 2020 - 23:29 Reply with quote Back to top

Garion wrote:
koadah wrote:
Do seasons have to be the same length?

e.g. A long first season to match a BBT season, then shorter maybe 10/15 games after that.
That way you do not have to cut teams back as far and "lucky" teams can't get so far ahead.

Note: Only BBT teams have to wait the full 20 games before re-buying.
see my reply above to grod ^


Is that not true?

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Grod



Joined: Sep 30, 2003

Post   Posted: Aug 07, 2020 - 23:30 Reply with quote Back to top

Garion wrote:
Grod wrote:

Possibly it's worth more thinking about whether 20 games is the right amount, or, or 15 or 10 even. In SWL we use 7 game seasons for example. Longer seasons has a draw back on mushy teams that need to rebuild more often - they might not last for 20 games!


Christer said you can opt to end a season and redraft anytime. 20 is just the max. So this isn't a problem.


Ah cool.This opens the possibility of forcing all teams to start a new season at the start of an official tournament? Could be for all tournaments, or just specific ones?

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Garion



Joined: Aug 19, 2009

Post   Posted: Aug 07, 2020 - 23:35 Reply with quote Back to top

Grod wrote:
Garion wrote:
Grod wrote:

Possibly it's worth more thinking about whether 20 games is the right amount, or, or 15 or 10 even. In SWL we use 7 game seasons for example. Longer seasons has a draw back on mushy teams that need to rebuild more often - they might not last for 20 games!


Christer said you can opt to end a season and redraft anytime. 20 is just the max. So this isn't a problem.


Ah cool.This opens the possibility of forcing all teams to start a new season at the start of an official tournament? Could be for all tournaments, or just specific ones?


You can apply to a tournament at any point. So if you wanted to redraft then enter a tournament you can. However most people would play 20 games then stop, so that their team is maximally pimped. Then enter the tournament.

As soon as they are knocked out or win the tourney the team would be forced into redraft.

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Grod



Joined: Sep 30, 2003

Post   Posted: Aug 07, 2020 - 23:40 Reply with quote Back to top

Anyway, seasons will be great for the site. I am sure there are other coaches like me that largely dont bother with the official tournaments because we dont play enough to build a remotely competitive team (you know, with TV 2000+).
Definitely will make the tournaments and other aspects of the site more accessible! We should see a larger of variety of teams and a more even playing field. The mega (claw) mutation teams wont be able to dominate any more!

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Last edited by Grod on Aug 07, 2020 - 23:43; edited 1 time in total
MattDakka



Joined: Oct 09, 2007

Post   Posted: Aug 07, 2020 - 23:42 Reply with quote Back to top

Garion, I understand you don't like CR and win rate, but they provide an incentive to play to competitive coaches, just like Box Trophy did (it attracted some BB2 coaches, if I'm not wrong).
I know that Trophy is not related to CR, but my point is that some people like to climb ladders and have a goal to pursue beyond playing a one-off game in a perpetual division.
I could live without CR and win rate (I could play tier 3 teams! Razz ), but, since the site has them they should be earned only through the best and most fair way to arrange games, i.e. automatic MM.


Last edited by MattDakka on Aug 07, 2020 - 23:55; edited 3 times in total
BeanBelly



Joined: Nov 14, 2019

Post   Posted: Aug 07, 2020 - 23:45 Reply with quote Back to top

Thanks Christer for your thoughts; I'll gladly follow your lead.
One competitive division makes absolute sense; this site is confusing for new joiners, and that will help a little.
We should stay right with the latest rule-sets, lest we become a retirement home for the clinically nostalgic.
As you hinted, we would will have to come up with a better name than "hardcore" because the porn connotations are unpleasant.
In my view a team in black box scheduler should play whatever team the algorithm matches them with. No exceptions.

League/Secret League sounds the right place for coaches who want to play old races.

I'm not concerned about losing current teams - of course I don't have a venerable Crown of Sands winning team - but I feel that the site would benefit (gain new users) by fresh new team, embracing seasons, and reducing bloat.

Interesting times, all good fun. Thanks again.
Balle2000



Joined: Sep 25, 2008

Post   Posted: Aug 07, 2020 - 23:48 Reply with quote Back to top

Garion wrote:
Id rather CR was got rid of entirely along with win ratio stats on the coach home page etc.. I think all of it breeds negativity.

It certainly has negative effects. But I also think it helps drive up match numbers to a certain extent. However not sure if that's a net win or loss for Fumbbl as a community.
MattDakka



Joined: Oct 09, 2007

Post   Posted: Aug 07, 2020 - 23:50 Reply with quote Back to top

Numbers are what you make of them, they can generate negativity but they can generate good competition amongst coaches and more games played on the site as well.
Also, they help to quickly spot good coaches to watch if you are interested in a race, this is why it's important that rankings and win rates are not skewed by picking.
If picking were a minor detail, then Box Trophy would be open to normal teams, instead, only hardcore teams vs hardcore teams can play it.
This suggests that not picking is an important factor in competitive play.


Last edited by MattDakka on Aug 08, 2020 - 00:01; edited 3 times in total
Christer



Joined: Aug 02, 2003

Post   Posted: Aug 07, 2020 - 23:58
FUMBBL Staff
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CR isn't going away, and it's going to remain separated between Normal and Hardcore (essentially the same as B and R) together with the combined CR much like now.

I'm happy with the system as it stands, and don't see a reason to reset it. The CRs will adjust to "correct" levels pretty quickly.
happygrue



Joined: Oct 15, 2010

Post   Posted: Aug 08, 2020 - 00:15 Reply with quote Back to top

I'll toss out a trivially minor suggestion: I like calling it "challenge" mode rather than "hardcore" mode (in part because I think it also explains what it is better, you are just restricting your matchmaking as a challenge and in part because I imagine some R vs. B flamers will be annoyed by calling Box "hardcore" mode). This would also fit nicely within a "Competitive" division, as then we have [C] teams and CC "competitive challenge" teams (slight play on BlackBox being commonly abbreviated "BB").

Possible logo identifier for such teams (regardless of what they are called): A logo that looks like an actual FUMMBL RL tabletop die, but with skulls instead of 1s. Or something along those lines (a nod toward the actual FUMMBL logo).

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MattDakka



Joined: Oct 09, 2007

Post   Posted: Aug 08, 2020 - 00:24 Reply with quote Back to top

Competition must be between 2 teams from same division. Mixing teams from different divisions is not truly competitive.
This is why Box Trophy doesn't allow Ranked teams vs Box teams and it will not allow normal teams vs hardcore teams.
Normal teams should play only vs normal teams, hardcore only vs hardcore.
PurpleChest



Joined: Oct 25, 2003

Post   Posted: Aug 08, 2020 - 00:58
FUMBBL Staff
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koadah wrote:

There should be a couple of hardcore only tournaments. Though Box didn't get them so hardcore only probably won't either.


This is 100% false.

I was in charge of all FUMBBL Tournaments and I personally invented an entire suite of B only Tournaments, which were popular and successful. One, the Crown Of Sand persists, in combined entry form, to this day.

B had 4 exclusive B only Majors.
B Minors, the first tourneys at randomly generated TV levels.
B Brawls.

But the traffic then warranted and needed those formats, as time, the game of BB and the player base moved on, so did Tournaments.

But that all definitely happened. I'm sure of it.

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