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argos_72



Joined: Mar 02, 2007

Post   Posted: Sep 26, 2021 - 14:14 Reply with quote Back to top

I've been playing Blood Bowl on this site (seriously) for more than a year now, I'm not an expert player yet and I have a lot to learn (and I thank those few who take the time to point out my mistakes and the administrators who work hard to allow us to play).
Today I would like to write some free thoughts on a topic that is very close to my heart, that is the so-called BloodBowl-FUMBBL netiquette.
I don't like football but I prefer rugby for a very simple reason: the players on the field can give each other a good thrashing but then no one argue of "at the end of the game" complaining, shouting at the referee, making insinuations or leaving the field in the 89th minute if they are losing badly. In Rugby you always congratulate the winning opponent even if they've won by blatant dumb luck, fans don't slaughter each other outside stadiums, spectators watch games in the pub without particular enmity.
Well, BloodBowl (and its perfect reproduction on fumbbl) works the same way.
Some unwritten rules that should always be kept in mind are related to the education of the game.
I'll make a short list of them

A) Netiquette of good chat manners

1) When starting the match a greeting and a wish is good manners (hello, good luck , have fun...)

2) When the opponent scores it is good to say "Gratz". ALWAYS. Even if your opponent scores by making a dodge at 5+ two gfi, a long bomb at 7+ and a catch at 6+. You ALWAYS say "Gratz. If anything, you say "Gratz" and then "of course you got lucky".

3) It is not mandatory to talk about anything during the match. But if an opponent makes a comment or a question it is good manners to answer. There is nothing worse than playing against a mute.

4) It seems superfluous to say that insults in chat should be avoided. Not to be confused with sarcasm. Those who make sarcasm (or acid comments), however, know that they then lend themselves to criticism. So I personally have learnt not to do it any more (unless one calls a timeout without warning or makes an insult to me, see below).

5) Chatting, complaining, insulting....
We are on a site where there are thousands of users from all continents and all nations. Each people has its own culture, so it is normal that some people are more talkative than others. I don't consider this as a problem, it's not necessary to be big friends. Of course writing in chat just to complain about the dice or to curse against the Nuffle may bother some people. But if one takes it out on the dice in the end it's not so bad (it is however sometimes stressful to play against players who always complain and unfortunately I did it often in the past too! So shame on me.). Personal insults, on the other hand, cannot be tolerated. There is a fine line between insult and sarcasm. A certain amount of banter with an opponent is acceptable. Within the limits of good manners

B) "Disconnection" due to frustration
There are sometimes players (it happens to me once a month) who disappear during a game. When I say "disappear" I really mean "disappear": you don't see anything on the Chat Log like "player A disconnected", it's as if they kept the client open and left without prevent. It's only ever happened to me when I'm shamelessly winning (I admit it's almost always due to shameful luck). This made me think that simply the player is so "upset" that they take it and leave. Naturally no one can prove that this is a "rage" disconnection and the "presumption of innocence" rule always applies (“my son fell and broke a tooth”, “my wife is in the kitchen with the plumber and I hear strange moans...”). So in those cases the rules indicated here https://fumbbl.com/help:DisconnectionProblems apply, starting from the good faith of the adversary who magically reappears as soon as you send a PM with someone of the staff in CC, and mumbling some excuse like "my mouse broken".
The thing that makes me call these disconnections from "frustration" is that they have always happened to me against opponents who were losing games irreparably compromised (due to a shameless luck that I had I do not deny it). Strange that no opponent who was brazenly winning has ever abandoned a game in the last 12 months, while every month I get one who is losing with no good chance of winning and leaves. I too have found myself wanting to interrupt the via crucis of an irreparably compromised game. In that case, you can concede the game, there are rules that allow it, normally you should never concede but the terrifying game can happen.

C) TIMEOUT
There is no rule for calling or not calling a timeout. The developers of the site have left it to the discretion of the player, setting only the time limit at 4 minutes. There are endless debates between those who would like it to be mandatory and those who would like it to be optional, and frankly I would say that both sides of this debate are right and wrong, so I'm not taking sides. But there is something else more important and it is a sort of "good manners" rule according to which - as long as the timeout is optional - "it is good practice to warn your opponent in advance that you will call a timeout". You can say this at the start of the game, or after your opponent commits the first timeout. Sending a first warning just 5 seconds before calling a timeout is not polite. Worse, it is (in my humble opinion) dishonest to call a timeout without warning. I've had a few difficult games where, especially in turn 8 of the last drive in a very complicated situation, I exceeded the time limit. I had a timeout without warning. The opposite has also happened to me: I have played against very slow players who finished all their rounds at around 3 minutes 50. All in all, you need the right measure. As in all things

I could say many more, many of them slip my mind. Of course, if there are people who want to add something, they are welcome to do so.
koadah



Joined: Mar 30, 2005

Post   Posted: Sep 26, 2021 - 15:18 Reply with quote Back to top

The site is getting on for 20 years old. In some ways the conduct of coaches has improved greatly over time. In some ways I think it hasn't.

You will probably find that the site is far, far better than most game sites.

I only play very few matches. Most of the time I run leagues & tournaments.

The way that I improve my chances of getting a good game is to only play in the League division and to only arrange open games via discord.
Playing vs people that I know from the chat room feels a lot better to me.
But if I was able to play a lot of games, then I'd have to compromise.

You can't really dictate to people how they should behave if their conduct complies with site rules.

Bear in mind that some coaches cannot chat due to issues seeing/accessing that chat box.
Some people's English skills may not be the greatest.

If you are going to play in a huge anonymous league then some of your experiences will be less than ideal.
But most other games will be far worse.

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Alien_the_Alien



Joined: Apr 22, 2020

Post   Posted: Sep 26, 2021 - 15:28 Reply with quote Back to top

Hello, I'm fairly new on FUMBBL and there's something else I've been wondering about.

When playing in league, usually one coach will send a password to the other before the match. When is it the most appropriate to do so? Let's say we scheduled for 15:00 server time. Is it ok if I start the match and send the pw at 14:45? Or should I wait until 15:00 and take the risk that we both start the game with our own password simultaneously?

When playing through the gamefinder, my opponent will sometimes take a lot of time to join without sending a private message to tell me. How long should I wait? If it ok if I send them a message asking if they are still joining? (after like 5 min?)
argos_72



Joined: Mar 02, 2007

Post   Posted: Sep 26, 2021 - 15:42 Reply with quote Back to top

Alien_the_Alien wrote:
Hello, I'm fairly new on FUMBBL and there's something else I've been wondering about.

When playing in league, usually one coach will send a password to the other before the match. When is it the most appropriate to do so? L[...[

When playing through the gamefinder, my opponent will sometimes take a lot of time to join without sending a private message to tell me. How long should I wait? If it ok if I send them a message asking if they are still joining? (after like 5 min?)


If it is a league normally the mach is planned much earlier (even one or two weeks earlier). The best thing to do is to send a PM to the coach asking him when he wants to play, agree on the exact time and at the same include the password.

On gamefinder I usually apply the rules indicated here
https://fumbbl.com/help:DisconnectionProblems
I wait ten minutes and then I send a PM. if after 15 minutes the player does not show up you have to follow the steps: send a PM wait 24 hours, if the player does not show up contact the staff with a PM (or on DISCORD there is a HELP channel where you can write directly @FUMBBL_STAFF: they are very responsive and friendly.
argos_72



Joined: Mar 02, 2007

Post   Posted: Sep 26, 2021 - 15:51 Reply with quote Back to top

koadah wrote:
The site is getting on for 20 years old. In some ways the conduct of coaches has improved greatly over time. In some ways I think it hasn't.

[...]

Bear in mind that some coaches cannot chat due to issues seeing/accessing that chat box.
Some people's English skills may not be the greatest.

If you are going to play in a huge anonymous league then some of your experiences will be less than ideal.
But most other games will be far worse.


Sure
But in the end, what I have written, if you think about it, is just a list of 'common sense' rules. The difference between playing Blood Bowl or any online portal with hundreds of thousands of players, is that first of all a Blood Bowl game lasts at least one full hour (so you have to be motivated, it's not like playing 15 minutes of Starcraft : build - attack - run, end). And then as you said in the end here we are a small community so it is good practice to have certain behaviors (notwithstanding that we also have our own small list of unpleasant coaches you can not do anything there)

About chat and mutism: I refer to someone who enters the game and greets, talks and then, depending on the game, becomes mute and hostile. Unfortunately we all know what the six die means. In the past I got very angry for this randomness, but then I understood that if you play well "on average" the die gives and the die takes away, as the good coach Chivite says, and then in the long run the variability of the die is not the determining factor to determine your ranking (provided that one cares about his ranking Smile)
koadah



Joined: Mar 30, 2005

Post   Posted: Sep 26, 2021 - 15:52 Reply with quote Back to top

Alien_the_Alien wrote:
Hello, I'm fairly new on FUMBBL and there's something else I've been wondering about.

When playing in league, usually one coach will send a password to the other before the match. When is it the most appropriate to do so? Let's say we scheduled for 15:00 server time. Is it ok if I start the match and send the pw at 14:45? Or should I wait until 15:00 and take the risk that we both start the game with our own password simultaneously?


IMO send it as soon as you are ready. Explain that you are a bit early and the opponent can join when they are ready.
If the opponent turns out to be early too, you could save half an hour.
Though, keep an eye on it. If the opponent is early, don't then keep them waiting while you use the toilet and make your tea. Wink

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koadah



Joined: Mar 30, 2005

Post   Posted: Sep 26, 2021 - 16:16 Reply with quote Back to top

argos_72 wrote:
koadah wrote:
The site is getting on for 20 years old. In some ways the conduct of coaches has improved greatly over time. In some ways I think it hasn't.

[...]

Bear in mind that some coaches cannot chat due to issues seeing/accessing that chat box.
Some people's English skills may not be the greatest.

If you are going to play in a huge anonymous league then some of your experiences will be less than ideal.
But most other games will be far worse.


Sure
But in the end, what I have written, if you think about it, is just a list of 'common sense' rules. The difference between playing Blood Bowl or any online portal with hundreds of thousands of players, is that first of all a Blood Bowl game lasts at least one full hour (so you have to be motivated, it's not like playing 15 minutes of Starcraft : build - attack - run, end). And then as you said in the end here we are a small community so it is good practice to have certain behaviors (notwithstanding that we also have our own small list of unpleasant coaches you can not do anything there)

About chat and mutism: I refer to someone who enters the game and greets, talks and then, depending on the game, becomes mute and hostile. Unfortunately we all know what the six die means. In the past I got very angry for this randomness, but then I understood that if you play well "on average" the die gives and the die takes away, as the good coach Chivite says, and then in the long run the variability of the die is not the determining factor to determine your ranking (provided that one cares about his ranking Smile)


I think the old saying is "there is no such thing as common sense". Wink

I agree with your "rules". They'll be good for people coming from other sites.

It will still be up to you to deal with the bad matches when they occur.

Rugby does have it's share of violent, brutish cowards though. Twisted Evil

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JackassRampant



Joined: Feb 26, 2011

Post   Posted: Sep 26, 2021 - 17:15 Reply with quote Back to top

P1: "hf, gl"
P2: "tl, dr"

No, seriously, I think the thing to remember is that this game is in great part about how well you take one (or several) on the chin. If you can remember that, you can usually weather the bad times, and you end up with this wry sense of humor and thousand-square stare about it all... most of the time.

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argos_72



Joined: Mar 02, 2007

Post   Posted: Sep 26, 2021 - 18:00 Reply with quote Back to top

JackassRampant wrote:
P1: "hf, gl"
P2: "tl, dr"

No, seriously, I think the thing to remember is that this game is in great part about how well you take one (or several) on the chin. If you can remember that, you can usually weather the bad times, and you end up with this wry sense of humor and thousand-square stare about it all... most of the time.


very true!
PaddyMick



Joined: Jan 03, 2012

Post   Posted: Sep 26, 2021 - 18:07 Reply with quote Back to top

Good post and summary of the netiquette here I reckon.
I have to stick up for football fans though mate. Hooliganism isn't really a big thing anymore. Also, they are better behaved towards bar staff than rugby fans, in my experience of working match days, in a city with big teams in both sports.
You are very much correct about the ref.player relationship though, I just don't get why football refs put up with it.
argos_72



Joined: Mar 02, 2007

Post   Posted: Sep 26, 2021 - 18:49 Reply with quote Back to top

PaddyMick wrote:
Good post and summary of the netiquette here I reckon.
I have to stick up for football fans though mate. Hooliganism isn't really a big thing anymore. Also, they are better behaved towards bar staff than rugby fans, in my experience of working match days, in a city with big teams in both sports.
You are very much correct about the ref.player relationship though, I just don't get why football refs put up with it.


Of course when I talk about hooligans I know it depends on the Country.
In the UK it was a disaster 20 years ago.Now the problem is much better managed and as far as I know you can go and watch a game in absolute safety with your child in the stadium. In other European countries unfortunately this is not the case. There is a kind of visceral "hatred" that surrounds football. A taste for mocking your losing opponent. The inability to admit that when you lose it is because you deserved it and not because of the referee (even with the motion replay in the field and controversies never end). I have never seen this climate in Rugby, where in the end there are no endless polemics. As in many other competitive sports (Tennis, Volleyball etc.... ). I know it also depends on the business behind it and the mass of people who follow it (a multitude for football)

anyway at the end what I say is that I like the "rugby" philosophy and I like to be applied in Blood Bowl competitions too Smile
ArrestedDevelopment



Joined: Sep 14, 2015

Post   Posted: Sep 26, 2021 - 21:22 Reply with quote Back to top

Eh, I honestly think the only thing I "expect" from an opponent these days is "hello". GLHF usually follows it, but I've had some fine games from people who've not uttered those words or an equivalent and it never bothered me. So some sort of greeting basically will do.

Complete silence can be annoying at times but is infinitely preferable to complaint.

Timeout is iffy, like really iffy to declare a moral objective viewpoint on. Especially since the official rules on it have recently changed again. In previous rulesets I would say "it is dishonest to not warn on a timeout" is completely wrong for instance.

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Mingoose



Joined: Jul 28, 2016

Post   Posted: Sep 26, 2021 - 22:55 Reply with quote Back to top

I find it appropriate to point out your own good luck when it happens. If you want to complain about your bad luck, do it in a humorous way, or even better in a role playing fashion. Instead of saying “I have the worst luck I should be winning” say “that blitzer is terrible, I’m putting him on the line next drive and I hope he dies!”
mekutata



Joined: May 03, 2015

Post   Posted: Sep 27, 2021 - 10:28 Reply with quote Back to top

You forgot to add "Don't whine about a T16 foul".

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stej



Joined: Jan 05, 2009

Post   Posted: Sep 27, 2021 - 12:52 Reply with quote Back to top

Shame that the implications of a concession are fixed in advance, and don't depend on the game state at point of concession.
I've had a few games where the dice have gone in my favour, I'm looking at a pitch clear and a few extra TDs, but my opponent concedes, so the concession sps are unlikely to be near what I would have got from the remainder of the game.
It's a minor gripe, and I expect no changes, but just wanted to voice it
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