EvolveToAnarchism
Joined: Aug 02, 2003
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 Posted:
May 15, 2003 - 23:29 |
 
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[quote="MirascaelAnd no, I don't think that the STR-system is the way to go. I would suggest TR minus mng players - 1/10 player-TR for each niggle of a niggler (not 1/6 since there seems to be a reason that niggler isn't retired and it would be easier to calculate). Could be too complicated though.[/quote]
I played some badly niggled high elves for last month. And I felt like I was giving away points to my opponents. So, I understand your reservations but I'm not quite so sure it's as big a problem as you'd think it is. None the less, I'm very reluctantly using the TR formula because I can't think of anything that is easisly verifiable and reportable. I am not fond of using a mysterious (the STR formula is still hidden?) formula for calculating points. But I might be tempted to average out TR and STR for the handicapping. Any thoughts on that? Or any other suggestions for a scoring system?
As Always,
Evolve To Anarchism
Sci-Fi Link |
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Frankenstein
Joined: Aug 02, 2003
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May 15, 2003 - 23:33 |
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| Mr-Klipp wrote: | And *why* don't you think the str system is the way to go? Take a look at the stats of how the str system is doing. This page shows the predicted win percentages at each STR difference and the actual reported win percentages.
http://fumbbl.com/FUMBBL.php?page=stats&op=rankings |
Buying a rookie lineelf / tree / catcher / thrower for highly developed woodies who are low on players can raise the STR of a Team between 50 and 100 by more then 20 points. No way that is reasonable. The actual number of players is rather insignificant for actual strength. C'mon, a rookie Lineelf is just a nuisance which has almost no impact on games at all, most times he would die in his very first game, even before he would have taken any action at all. And that pathetic wretch raises my team-STR by 20-30%? He is not even worth the 7.
I do not say the STR-system is utter crap - on the contrary. But the formula has a major flaw with regard to the number of available players. 4-5 well developed Woodies dont become 20-30% stronger by acquiring a blockless lino. Rookies are almost irrelevant on such rosters. If I cared about ranking I would stop buying any lineelves at all since they ruin my STR with almost no benefit for my team. |
Last edited by Frankenstein on %b %15, %2003 - %23:%May; edited 1 time in total |
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Frankenstein
Joined: Aug 02, 2003
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| Posted:
May 15, 2003 - 23:44 |
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| EvolveToAnarchism wrote: | | I am not fond of using a mysterious (the STR formula is still hidden?) formula for calculating points. But I might be tempted to average out TR and STR for the handicapping. Any thoughts on that? Or any other suggestions for a scoring system? |
I still cannot see why mng-players should have any impact on the awarded points at all. That simply does not make any sense!
It's not that I fear that my entire team becomes annihilated, I don't care about that. If a full-strength chaos team challenges my mng-decimated Woodies due to their much higher TR although only 50% of that TR are available for the game due to mng's that would simply make for a dead boring game. |
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AsperonThorn
Joined: Aug 02, 2003
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May 15, 2003 - 23:56 |
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You have the option to play outside the league. You can use this opportunity for "recovery" matches in order to get those players back. My Dark Elves have been known to snipe teams, in Anarchist, at weak moments, but I also know that other teams have the opportunity to challenge me back when they are healthy, or I am not. That, in my opinion, is one of the fun things about the tourny. After a particularly brutal game I am motivated to retire weak players/play more matches in order to keep my team competitive.
You can look at these Match Reports in which I freely admit taking advantage of teams. Honestly, it makes it much more fun.
http://fumbbl.com/FUMBBL.php?page=match&op=view&id=20057
http://fumbbl.com/FUMBBL.php?page=match&op=view&id=29365
Asperon Thorn |
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Frankenstein
Joined: Aug 02, 2003
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May 16, 2003 - 00:05 |
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| AsperonThorn wrote: | | You can look at these Match Reports in which I freely admit taking advantage of teams. Honestly, it makes it much more fun. |
Weird that I wouldn't see the fun of having no players on the pitch by the end of turn 2 or 3.  I'm talking Wood Elves here.  |
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AsperonThorn
Joined: Aug 02, 2003
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May 16, 2003 - 00:11 |
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You ARE very strange. My elves have been able to survive, your faster woodies should be able to.
Asperon Thorn |
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Mr-Klipp
Joined: Aug 02, 2003
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| Posted:
May 16, 2003 - 03:11 |
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First, str is recorded along with TR in the match reports, so it would be easy to use and verifiable. As for the accuracy of str, I feel the statistics speak for themselves. The win percentage predicted at each str gap is very close to the actual reported percentage at that gap, and that seems to show quite clearly that str is a good tool for predicting a teams ability to win. As for the fact that how it is calculated is still secret, there is a good reason. With the old system, there were some players (I won't name names, but I'm sure you can think of one or two) who tried to set up their team to take advantage of the ranking system wherever possible. When people are working the ranking system, it messes with all the data, and that is one of the reasons the str formula is hidden for now. |
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The Finishing Touch |
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Frankenstein
Joined: Aug 02, 2003
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May 16, 2003 - 13:27 |
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It just happened again:
I bought a new Lineelf for my Ashenvale Protectors and the STR raised from 91 to 112, that's 21 points or 23%. That's completely detached from reality. If I wanted to take advantage of the STR-formula I would stop buying new players.
Well, and buying a RR raises my STR by 5? And each AC or CL by 1?
Not reasonable IMHO.
I suggest something like this (only meant as an approach):
Each player cost/10 (as LRB-TR)
1st skill: +2
2nd skill: +4
3rd skill: +6
4th skill: +8
5th skill: +10
6th skill: +20
7th skill: +20
(all skills cumulative, of course)
RR: full cost /10
CL/AC: 1/2 cost
mng: not added to STR (as now, good one)
NI: -10% of player-STR value for each niggle (there's a reason if they are kept, probably since they have got strong skills or stat increases)
stat-decreases: tough one, maybe -1 STR per decrease.
I would by no means suggest that the STR formula takes into account the actual number of available players. That would be, from my experience, absolutely unjustified. |
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Mr-Klipp
Joined: Aug 02, 2003
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May 17, 2003 - 08:16 |
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There is a good reason it takes it into account. If you have less players on the field, you won't do as well. This is why bashy teams bash, to remove players and gain numeric advantage. If you have less players you will be less able to get the ball away on defense, and less able to score as they will have extra players to hold you back. |
_________________
Looking to get your minis painted? Look no further.
The Finishing Touch |
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EvolveToAnarchism
Joined: Aug 02, 2003
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| Posted:
May 17, 2003 - 08:30 |
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Mirascael and myself can both attest to the power of a low number of highly skilled elves. In my opinion, the STR is completely screwed by such extreme teams. When my HE were regularly fielding between 4 and 8 players for over a dozen games and playing teams with even STR or higher, I believe I lost one game (due mainly to loads of niggles), and won most of the rest rather easily. Either I'm an awesome coach, or the STR doesn't handle such teams very well. I'd like to think it's a bit of both, but I fear I'm just suffering from inflated-head syndrome. 
Re: people abusing the STR system. There's nothing stopping people from doing that now. It just takes them a bit more work. I could rant at length at the sillyness of secrecy, but I'll just say I'm a big fan of the open source philosophy.
As Always,
Evolve To Anarchism
Fun Link |
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Ignorance is Strength quis custodiet ipsos custodes As Always, Evolve To Anarchism |
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Frankenstein
Joined: Aug 02, 2003
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| Posted:
May 17, 2003 - 09:10 |
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| Mr-Klipp wrote: | | There is a good reason it takes it into account. If you have less players on the field, you won't do as well. This is why bashy teams bash, to remove players and gain numeric advantage. If you have less players you will be less able to get the ball away on defense, and less able to score as they will have extra players to hold you back. |
I only can tell you from my experience that adding a lindude to my current team does not even raise its actual strength by his TR-value. To evaluate him by the factor 3 as the current STR did in my case, is entirely detached from reality. Since the lineelf does not even increase my actual STR by 7 points his ordinary TR value would absolutely suffice. |
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Frankenstein
Joined: Aug 02, 2003
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| Posted:
May 17, 2003 - 09:41 |
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| EvolveToAnarchism wrote: | | Re: people abusing the STR system. There's nothing stopping people from doing that now. It just takes them a bit more work. I could rant at length at the sillyness of secrecy, but I'll just say I'm a big fan of the open source philosophy. Fun Link |
I couldn't agree more. |
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Niebling
Joined: Aug 02, 2003
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May 20, 2003 - 19:28 |
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Bendrig
Joined: Aug 02, 2003
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May 20, 2003 - 19:58 |
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following their latest tactical defeat, the rollers van twee hereby announce that, after 50 games, they have had enough of this open league.
They have therefore decided to try the divx fields of glory.
(I suppose I'll wait 'till next month to join the divx anarchist division then, to make things simpler... just don't want to keep the team around in open anymore, but don't want to retire them either. thingie. just letting you know.) |
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Jahira
Joined: Aug 02, 2003
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| Posted:
May 25, 2003 - 02:47 |
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