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Frankie



Joined: Oct 15, 2003

Post   Posted: Aug 24, 2004 - 12:15 Reply with quote Back to top

Sometimes my opponents are surprised that I accept the +ag for the saurus or the krox. If they can get a break tackle that makes them one of bloodbowl's best mobile forward or defender. A single kroxigor can hold three men with bt. Plus ag2 is the key to ag3 (my dream-kroxigor)
Mezir



Joined: Aug 02, 2003

Post   Posted: Aug 24, 2004 - 12:50 Reply with quote Back to top

What's this with all the passing mentions I see? You do realise that Stunty increases the range band by one, making it a 4+ for even a Quick Pass, right?

On the Strip Ball thing, if my opponent has the skill, I'll keep the ball on my Sure Hands player, if he doesn't I'll give it to whoever I want to score with ASAP. Strip Ball means that you decide who has the ball instead of me, and it means that I am going to hand the ball off (or pass it) to my scorer on the same turn that I will score with him, increasing the chance of a failed pass/catch screwing up my offence (especially if I decided to stall till turn Cool. So Strip Ball is a good skill even if your opponent has Sure Hands players.

_________________
Build a man a fire and he's warm for a day; set a man on fire and he's warm for the rest of his life.
fork



Joined: Jul 27, 2004

Post   Posted: Aug 24, 2004 - 14:11 Reply with quote Back to top

Quote:
Hail Mary Pass/Catch/Diving Catch Combo
Skinks have no General skill access without doubles on a skill roll so you'll find you have a lot more Agility skills than you could possibly want. Taking Catch and Diving Catch on two or three skinks then hoping for a double for Hail Mary Pass makes for a very reliable scoring method. Short of the ball scattering too far (anyone got a % on this?) you're likely to score. This tactic can get quite boring and you should not field your HMP skink except on offense as he will be blitzed and fouled leaving you without the keystone of a highly specialised team.

Well, I found my old HMP/DC table it looks like this (all values are the probablility that the ball will _scatter_ to that square, and if it is not caught it will _bounce_ on more square)

0,002 0,006 0,012 0,014 0,012 0,006 0,002
0,006 0,012 0,023 0,023 0,023 0,012 0,006
0,012 0,023 0,053 0,053 0,053 0,023 0,012
0,014 0,023 0,053 0,047 0,053 0,023 0,014
0,012 0,023 0,053 0,053 0,053 0,023 0,012
0,006 0,012 0,023 0,023 0,023 0,012 0,006
0,002 0,006 0,012 0,014 0,012 0,006 0,002

Looking at the table you can see that with Diving Catch you have a probalility of 0,5098 that you will get a chance to catch the ball [P(scatter to a adjacent square)=0,4688 + P(scatter two sqauares away and then bouncing back onto the player)=0,0410, leaving P(scatter two squares away and not bouncing on the player or scattering three squares away)=0,4902].

You have a probability of success of 0,97 to succeed with the Hail Mary Pass (with an RR).


I then you have to catch the ball too, if you have catch the probability of success will be 0,75 for ag3 and 0,89 for ag4; thus in all:

P(Ag3, Catch Skink)=0,371704102
P(Ag4, Catch Skink)=0,440538194

I guess it is up to every coach to tell weather or not it is a highly successfully tactic, of course these numbers can be fiddled with if you have several skinks bundeled togheather, just remember that only the skink you passed to can use Diving Catch, and if you put four of them in a square formation and toss the ball inbetween no one get to use the skill. If you continue to roll doubles it may be a good idea to get pro on the HMP skink, since it might not eat RRs at the same rate then. Happy Hail Marying

//fork
Jarnageddon



Joined: Nov 04, 2003

Post   Posted: Aug 24, 2004 - 15:22 Reply with quote Back to top

I used the HMP/Diving Catch tactic with Snotlings and it worked more often then not, though with ma4 getting the snot down field was tricky.

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Markus



Joined: Aug 26, 2003

Post   Posted: Aug 24, 2004 - 15:53 Reply with quote Back to top

On offense it's good to have a saurus in the backfield to give him the ball in case of a touchback. This way he'll earn spp and the much needed skill(s) faster.

_________________
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"The opposite of a correct statement is a false statement. But the opposite of a profound truth may well be another profound truth."- Niels Bohr
tautology



Joined: Jan 30, 2004

Post   Posted: Aug 24, 2004 - 20:59 Reply with quote Back to top

Quote:

You have a probability of success of 0,97 to succeed with the Hail Mary Pass (with an RR).


It may be different in the client (I have never used HMP) but I believe the rules of the board game do not allow you to re-roll HMP scatter dice. Not sure if that's from the LTB or the rules forums, but I seem to recall it.
tautology



Joined: Jan 30, 2004

Post   Posted: Aug 24, 2004 - 21:20 Reply with quote Back to top

Quote:

On offense it's good to have a saurus in the backfield to give him the ball in case of a touchback. This way he'll earn spp and the much needed skill(s) faster.


Unless that Saurus has Break Tackle already, he's going nowhere!
Glomp



Joined: Jan 04, 2004

Post   Posted: Aug 24, 2004 - 21:32 Reply with quote Back to top

You need a section devoted to reliably getting saurus spp's. The main problem with lizardmen is that the big dopes cant do much and tend to stagnate the teams growth.

The only thing i can think of is giving them all mb,tackle,block,breaktackle

probably in that order, youll burn re-rolls like a demon but at least one day you might have some skilled players Rolling Eyes
Glomp



Joined: Jan 04, 2004

Post   Posted: Aug 24, 2004 - 21:33 Reply with quote Back to top

Oh and I like my nancy woodelves because they can beat lizardmen so convincingly Razz


Last edited by Glomp on Aug 24, 2004 - 21:38; edited 1 time in total
Mezir



Joined: Aug 02, 2003

Post   Posted: Aug 24, 2004 - 21:36 Reply with quote Back to top

tautology wrote:
Quote:

You have a probability of success of 0,97 to succeed with the Hail Mary Pass (with an RR).


It may be different in the client (I have never used HMP) but I believe the rules of the board game do not allow you to re-roll HMP scatter dice. Not sure if that's from the LTB or the rules forums, but I seem to recall it.


That part of his calculation is different from the scatter. Just before he says that he calculates the odds of being in a position to catch the ball if you HMP. The 97% chance in this case is rolling a 2 on the HMP itself, which you can re-roll.

_________________
Build a man a fire and he's warm for a day; set a man on fire and he's warm for the rest of his life.
Wombats



Joined: Oct 31, 2003

Post   Posted: Aug 25, 2004 - 01:01 Reply with quote Back to top

Thanks you guys - That Stunty modification to Pass I forgot completely - and induced turnovers because of it Smile

I didn't follow that notation using commas - How does the percentage success rate work with a team reroll, diving catch and catch assuming all squares are clear?

I'll incorporate what we've got so far in the next couple of days - As much to present differing opinions (the Block or Break Tackle first always has proponents on each side - I'm a Block fancier myself) as to add extra material.

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the_grey_ghost



Joined: Oct 22, 2003

Post   Posted: Aug 25, 2004 - 01:44 Reply with quote Back to top

Yea as a lizardman Coach who has made a few lizard teams that have flunked and one that ain't going to badly at the moment.

Number 1. ALWAYS get block on a saurus. Then always block with the Saurus who has the best odds.

Number 2. Saurus's are dangerous as they face Immobility due to ag1. So my tip is to use them to lock up the opposition players. Espeshilly on a bashy team you can really frustrate as they are one on one with a str4 dude and they usually fail on excapes. Against Elves BLOCK your head off! Blitz dudes into the crowd (frenzy rules, and it works so well). use your saurus's first to pound them. With the skinks have them frustrate the ball carrier, try and force dodging errors. Play the elves like elves play strong teams, force handling errors on the ball carrier. Keep your dudes within 1 square of their dudes and you will usually win out.

Number 3. Use your skinks in teams or move them away from the opposing players. Team skinkage really helps to frustrate a helpless ball carrier. If you surround him and lock up the assistance then he can't get better block dice on you. I have pounded coaches with my skinks just because they don't expect it. Either way it is worth while risking the skinks to harrass a ball carrier providing that they are in concentrated numbers to belittle a ball carrier. If you use the saurus's ma + skink ma to your advantage you can usually lock up most players or leave some at the other end of the field. Also feel free to move a skink away from a free or nasty player. Most coaches go skink hunting and sometimes they will go for it twice just to be in the same tackle zone. Use this to your advantage as it helps to burn their rerolls which they need to block the saurus's.

Development: I don't get this why haven't people mentioned Shadowing as a skill on saurus's or KROX? Shadowing rules with 6ma and Pre tail. I would possibly go shadowing second or third skill. It wastes their rerolls and usually helps to move a saurus around. Ashame Shadowing+ DT dosen't work to the full. DOUBLES on a KROX always go to pro. I have taken saurus's over an aproc and payed dearly for it. But it was worthwhile. Don't tell new coaches to just destroy their niggled saurus's. But fire them when the time is right. Cause they need to have as many saurus's on the field as possible. With skinks, I find that sure feet and sprint are useful. Their best defence to me is their speed. Also with passing if you make the distance closer you make the throw easier. Always take the extra ma over a double. It is well worth it. Also you don't need to move across the field of play, you just need to move outside the range of their nearest blocker. If you place a skink in his way he usually can't get through to you.

The HMP is an interesting play, I haven't used it. But just remember that it is a huge target number to kick off. I would only risk it on a skink with accurate or ag4.
Wombats



Joined: Oct 31, 2003

Post   Posted: Aug 25, 2004 - 03:05 Reply with quote Back to top

Right - Opinions please. Is Diving Tackle worth it?

I found three of them got me maybe one turnover a game usually only to dopey coaches.
Only worth it against dodge happy elves/zons?
Do you need it on a lot (4+) skinks to force your opponent make shonky dodges or give up?

_________________
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www.realultimatepower.net
Wombats



Joined: Oct 31, 2003

Post   Posted: Aug 25, 2004 - 03:33 Reply with quote Back to top

Not entirely sure if it needs to explicitly state that Sure Feet and Sprint are great options...the guide does cover areas not unique to Lizards but hopefully ones that require pointing out to new Lizard players.

Shadow is a good idea but in competition with Break Tackle, Tackle, Guard, Mighty Blow, etc? Is my bias showing or is this a fairly radical idea? Anyone else who's tried it or used Shadow a lot in other teams?

Criticism is welcome as some of these tactics like the Block/Strip Ball Skink blitzer I have not tried at all. The ideas are still rolling in so for now I'll just let it grow but at some point it needs a fairly savage pruning or at least making it more succinct.

_________________
Ninja versus Pirate . . . Ninja WINS!
www.realultimatepower.net
tautology



Joined: Jan 30, 2004

Post   Posted: Aug 25, 2004 - 03:50 Reply with quote Back to top

Quote:

Right - Opinions please. Is Diving Tackle worth it?


Diving Tackle is well worth it. DT and Side Step are the two best AG skills after Dodge (Sure Feet is a close 3rd) and your skinks have few other options worth considering on a normal roll. It is invaluable for covering a loose ball (especially against elves). It is quite useful for screening defensively against elves, and tying up a ball carrier or other critical player, Elf or otherwise. Ever play against an Elf team with 3 Blodge/Side Step/Diving Tacklers? Or a halfling team with loads of SS/DT? Brutal! Skinks don't do it quite as well, but it is still quite good.

Shadowing works so much better with MA 7, and your Sauri are already skill-starved. Wouldn't be my choice.

That's my 2 cents Wink
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