EvolveToAnarchism
Joined: Aug 02, 2003
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 Posted:
Nov 30, 2004 - 02:25 |
 
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Stunty Leeg has seen a large number of proposals. I've frequently dissected new proposals based on 3 criteria: Fluff, Uniqueness, and Novel playing style. In summary they must be FUN. I feel I should give an explanation of why these 3 criteria guided Stunty Leeg expansion for so long and why they are so important to me. I'm going to start with the Fluff criteria, as it's my most frequent critique of Stunty Leeg proposals. Some coaches don't think I'm being constructive when I criticize their incompatible background, some of which have obviously been worked on for a fair bit of time. I'd wager that most of them aren't too familiar with the Blood Bowl background and therefore don't truly understand what I mean when I say their background is incredibly weak. So without further ado, this is why I think a good compatible background is vital to any Stunty Leeg proposal.
Stunty Leeg is set in the Blood Bowl Universe. This is a parallel universe to the Warhammer Fantasy Universe created by Games Workshop. This is part of the appeal of Blood Bowl and the Stunty Leeg. To ignore the background that the game is set in dilutes the very background that is one of the best parts of Blood Bowl. Please don't try to mix fantasy stuff from someone else's universe (see Smurfs for an example). Please don't disregard the established fantasy background (see Elves and Protoelves). Please don't create a team that doesn't fit into the Blood Bowl paradigm (see Humanoid races and Jellies). These 3 types of background dilutions make me cringe. They make any Stunty Leeg proposal look incredibly out of place. They only the harm consistent background that the Stunty Leeg has thrived on.
I have a feeling some of you are drawn to Blood Bowl just for its game mechanics. I agree that it's a great strategy game. But it's a great strategy game set in a rich universe. A Troll Slayers has Dauntless, Frenzy and a lower AV than other dwarves not because that would be a great way to balance dwarves but because Troll Slayers are reknown for taking on big monsters, are famous for their battle frenzy and have a deathwish and thus don't wear much armour. You could do a systematic analysis of this sort for every player in Blood Bowl. It proves you can create reasonably balanced rosters that are almost solely based on the Blood Bowl Universe's background. Great care and an immense amount of hours was spent designing Stunty Leeg in a similar manner. Please don't design a team around a set of skills and then try to retroactively design some fluff around it. I've seen too many examples of this. It creates a roster with no coherent feel and with an incredibly weak background.
Stunty Leeg was built on a vision. A vision of respecting the Games Workshop Universe (Blood Bowl & Warhammer Fantasy). Mr-Klipp (the original head of Stunty Leeg) thought that we had mined the Warhammer Universe for all of the viable options after we had designed a half-dozen Stunty Leeg rosters. He was happy with Stunty Leeg as it stood then. He didn't want to expand unless a new team fit into the established universe. With great care to that vision and with a rather thorough examination of the Warhammer Background a few more teams were added to the Leeg. These teams all have a very Games Worshop-ish background. This took a lot of time and effort, but I gladly gave my time to create a coherent and consistent background for Stunty Leeg. The whole Leeg works in it's entirity. Adding one completely out of place team pollutes the whole entire Leeg. Please respect the Vision that guided the Stunty Leeg through it's rather remarkable growth. Please respect all the work that has been put into this Leeg. Please take the time to learn about the background that the game is based upon before making a proposal. Please design teams that are Fluffy, Unique and offer a Novel playing style and not just one of the three. Even if you don't care about the background, please respect those who enjoy it and think it is a very important part of the gaming experience. And lastly, please don't make me grow to dislike something in which I have invested so much time, energy and creativity.
As Always,
Evolve To Anarchism
United Sorcerer's Familiar Legion |
_________________
Ignorance is Strength quis custodiet ipsos custodes As Always, Evolve To Anarchism |
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annachie
Joined: Jul 27, 2004
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| Posted:
Nov 30, 2004 - 03:05 |
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Here here, and well said. Some ideas have been a little silly.
Since you mention background and fluff, I'd like to partialy hijack and ask about some possible ideas for inclusion into stunty.
Zoats. (They always were my favorite merc to use in the old warhammer)
Skeletons and zombies. (Whilst not mentioned specificaly, in theory animating stunties should give a stunty skeleton/zombie so the idea is feasible. But as you pointed out in another thread there's already 3 regen teams so something would have to be different)
Chaos Gnomes. If Dwarves can become Chaos Dwarves, can gnomes become Chaos gnomes and wouldn't they then play Bloodbowl? |
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Jackbedead
Joined: Mar 01, 2004
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| Posted:
Nov 30, 2004 - 06:55 |
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Here's a team idea
Beastlings:
....................................|mv| st |ag|av| skills
0-1 Beastlord: 100000.| 5 | 3 | 2 | 10| horns, dauntless, frenzy -G,S,Ph
0-4 beastman: 60000..| 6 | 3 | 3 | 8 | horns - G,S,Ph
0-12 ungor: 45000......| 5 | 2 | 2 | 7 | stunty, tackle - A
60000 reroll
When word reached the Beastmen heards of the upper hills that their own kin were participating in Bloodbowl matches the elder Beastlords wanted to participate. Not wanting to have their heards slaughtered in the arena they wisely chose to field their runt breed, the ungors.
Ungors are not as strong, tough or intelligent as the other beastmen. They are physically smaller and their horns are almost always less impressive and numerous than the larger gor and the even larger bestigors. Ungor are extremely cruel and spiteful creatures, taking out their jealously of the Gors on foes in battle, captives, Brays (those Beastmen without any horns) or anything else incapable of putting up much of a fight. In battle the Ungors join the Gors in unruly herds, charging towards the enemy with thoughts only of rending them apart. The Gors always push their way to the front of a fight, but the ungors are just as viscious. Often tackling their opponents to the ground and tearing them apart. If not for the fearless leadership of their battle hardened Beastlord the ungors wouldn't form a solid team and instead run murderousely into harms way, something they often times are not tough enough to endure. |
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Tinkywinky
Joined: Aug 25, 2003
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| Posted:
Nov 30, 2004 - 07:34 |
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| Quote: | Here's a team idea
Beastlings: |
That's a great idea! I think it would be a good idea to devote this thread to new stunty rosters. 
Here is another one, everyone feel free to chip in with more teams!
The rooster roster. (halflings riding on roosters)
0-16 roosters 5 2 1 10 dodge, block, diving tackle, side step, prehensile tail, tackle, jump-up, stunty. 30K
I think this would make a great rooster that would create all kinds of fun matches! It's also very unique with it's focus on defense.  |
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DrDrink
Joined: Jan 25, 2004
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| Posted:
Nov 30, 2004 - 07:51 |
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| Tinkywinky wrote: | | Quote: | Here's a team idea
Beastlings: |
That's a great idea! I think it would be a good idea to devote this thread to new stunty rosters.
Here is another one, everyone feel free to chip in with more teams!
The rooster roster. (halflings riding on roosters)
0-16 roosters 5 2 1 10 dodge, block, diving tackle, side step, prehensile tail, tackle, jump-up, stunty. 30K
I think this would make a great rooster that would create all kinds of fun matches! It's also very unique with it's focus on defense. |
O... wow... That's gotta be heavy sarcasim... heavy sarcasim halliriously executed. 
That was pretty tacky hijacking Evo's thread like that, but what the hell.
The vampiric chaos elf snotlings roster
0-2 Wood Elf Lineman 7 3 4 7 70k G, A
0-16 Vampiric Chaos Elf Snotling 6 2 3 6 dodge, hail mary pass, diving catch, two heads, ofab, thrall, <i>really</i> stupid, stunty 20K A, Ph
50k RR |
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peikko
Joined: Aug 02, 2003
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| Posted:
Nov 30, 2004 - 08:20 |
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Think I should again say my word in here: that was then, this is now.
As someone really in charge of stunty leeg unlike Evolve, I will take this time now to tell that official way of stunty leeg is that most important thing in it is uniquess, not fluff. Stunty leeg is something that is not ment to have rosters too close to each others in name of balance or fluff. Fluff is megabonus and team proposals must somehow fit into the game. There will never be team of smurfs. Still this is fantasy game and personally I dont much care if there is werewolfs or some other fantasy creatures in Warhammer world or not, they can still exist in stunty. Stunty leeg is free zone more than official "lrb world" and it is not as restricted that Evos officially sounding non-official post here might make you think. |
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Britnoth
Joined: Aug 02, 2003
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| Posted:
Nov 30, 2004 - 10:11 |
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| EvolveToAnarchism wrote: | | Please don't design a team around a set of skills and then try to retroactively design some fluff around it. I've seen too many examples of this. It creates a roster with no coherent feel and with an incredibly weak background. |
Well how did we get:
Chaos Halflings. (Break the rules of fluff, unique, and playing style yet they got in easily.)
Goblin Cheaters. (No trolls, permanent secret weapons and 2 dp. We already had a goblin team.)
Skryre Slaves. (Its damn obvious the whole team is based around str 1 guard stunty, with the mechavermin and deathroller stuck on with duct tape.)
Looks pretty hypocritical to me. What you are complaining about is how the teams were thought of? You serious in that because people don't use your way of making a roster it's invalid? Pffffffft.
It shouldn't matter what process you use, the team should stand on its own merits. |
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annachie
Joined: Jul 27, 2004
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| Posted:
Nov 30, 2004 - 11:34 |
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| peikko wrote: | Think I should again say my word in here: that was then, this is now.
As someone really in charge of stunty leeg unlike Evolve, I will take this time now to tell that official way of stunty leeg is that most important thing in it is uniquess, not fluff. Stunty leeg is something that is not ment to have rosters too close to each others in name of balance or fluff. Fluff is megabonus and team proposals must somehow fit into the game. There will never be team of smurfs. Still this is fantasy game and personally I dont much care if there is werewolfs or some other fantasy creatures in Warhammer world or not, they can still exist in stunty. Stunty leeg is free zone more than official "lrb world" and it is not as restricted that Evos officially sounding non-official post here might make you think. |
Does that mean I can have my Zoat? Would make a great variation to the goodie 2 shoes teams only having a tree as a big guy choice  |
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Tinkywinky
Joined: Aug 25, 2003
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| Posted:
Nov 30, 2004 - 15:44 |
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| Quote: | The vampiric chaos elf snotlings roster
0-2 Wood Elf Lineman 7 3 4 7 70k G, A
0-16 Vampiric Chaos Elf Snotling 6 2 3 6 dodge, hail mary pass, diving catch, two heads, ofab, thrall, really stupid, stunty 20K A, Ph
50k RR |
Hey there's a team that would guarantee a lot of mayhem! Hail mary and diving catch will create some whacky plays and combining snotlings with vampire and chaos fluff is damn clever. I also like the wood elfs, they really complete the team and fit in really well too. |
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bogh
Joined: Oct 31, 2004
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| Posted:
Nov 30, 2004 - 23:13 |
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| Quote: | | Hey there's a team that would guarantee a lot of mayhem! Hail mary and diving catch will create some whacky plays and combining snotlings with vampire and chaos fluff is damn clever. I also like the wood elfs, they really complete the team and fit in really well too. |
I like how they are both OFAB and thralls - cannibals! |
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EvolveToAnarchism
Joined: Aug 02, 2003
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| Posted:
Dec 01, 2004 - 05:59 |
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A short history of the Stunty Leeg and my involvement in its development.
Chaos Halflings: One of the earliest Stunty Leeg teams. As I, and others have pointed out, this is one of the weakest links in the Stunty Leeg background. The past Stunty Leeg admin (Mr-Klipp) and I both agreed that the Chaos Halflings were a big mistake. They just don't fit into the Stunty Leeg Universe. Had we been redoing the Stunty Leeg they probably would never have been created. Unfortunately, they exist and probably won't be going anywhere any time soon. It's because of this admitted mistake that I advocate so loudly against letting it occur again.
Fairies: I designed this team. The fae aspect of the Wood Elf background was played up to create a Unique team that would offer a Novel playing style to the Stunty Leeg. This team was implemented by Mr-Klipp prior to me being satisfied with the roster. I subsequently tweaked the roster to enhance its Fluff, Uniqueness and Novel playing style. I'm quite proud of how the background mixes with the rules to create a FUN team. Annoying brownies (Jump Up), larcenous leprechauns (Strip Ball), and beguiling pixies (Hypnotic Gaze) are examples of background dictating skill choices. I certainly find this much more appealing then giving a player Kick and then trying to rationalize it retroactively; all because you think Kick would be a addition to Stunty Leeg. Sure, it's possible to retroactively make up some background to justify an effect, but more often then not it just looks like an ugly kludge.
Gnomes: Cusi designed this team. The team was based on the dimininutive dwarven cousins from the older editions of Warhammer. Elements of looted dwarven technology and culture were the backbone of this team's background. I provided Cusi with lots of feedback on this roster. I also played a role in the adding of Bombers (sticking true to the original concept) once Ski Junkie coded bombs for the client. I'd love to see this team have their background fleshed out a bit more by truly taking control of their dwarven heritage. See the T.N.T. background for the direction I'd like the team to take.
Goblin: Not much to say on this team other than it has served as the baseline Stunty Leeg roster from its inception.
Goblin Cheaters: Designed by Mr-Klipp. Contrary to what others would like to believe, the goblin background supports this team design. Goblins are expert cheaters, as should be obvious from their selection of Secret Weapons Star players in the main Blood Bowl Rulebook. This team was just a logical extension of the already establish Blood Bowl background.
Halfling: The only thing, I can add to this original Stunty Leeg team is that there was a desire to give Halflings chainsaws when secret weapons were coded for the client. In fact, the Chaos Halfling Carver was a suggestion for the Halflings. The name coming from the halfling food obsessed background: electric turkey carvers anyone?
Pygmy: I mined the depths of the Warhammer Universe to design this team. The team was based on an old Warhammer army book reference. The team's positionals and big guys were based on the logical background connection between the jungle-dwelling pygmies and the jungle-dwelling lizardmen. The pygmies were conceived as slow diminiutive stalkers with the positionals being based on totemic animals that they hunt (a tribute to an earlier version of the lizardmen). Yet again demonstrating that an interesting team proposal combines strong Fluff, Unique player types that combine to create a Novel playing style.
Nurglings: I designed this team. I tried to play up the horde background that the nurgling background inspires. This was one of my earliest designs and I'm not too sure how well I succeeded with this one. Low ag, access to mutations, no TTM, regeneration and thick skull, access to daemonic mutations arguably capture the essence of the shambling horde that nurglings should be.
Skink: The skinks are a Stunty Leeg oddity. They were way too good and way to dull when they were implemented. I don't recall who designed them. MV 8 makes them way too good for the traditional Stunty Leeg team of 2 Big Guys and roster stunty "lineman". There were repeated attempts to redesign them to make them fit better into the Stunty Leeg. Eventually after I had playtested a roster with no Big Guys, it was decided that Skinks should pay for their amazing lineman by not having any Big Guys. Although the skink's background fits into the Stunty Leeg, I'm not sure if a team based on skink lineman is that great a fit into how Stunty Leeg plays.
Skryre Slaves: I distinctly remember designing this team exclusively on their background. Weak cowardly skaven slaves who only have strength in numbers. Skryre technomagic dicating their secret weapons and big guy equivalents. But I may be wrong; someone who did not design the team, may best know how I actually designed the team.
Snotlings: I played a major role in influencing Mr-Klipp's decisions for this team's secret weapon players. The Stunty Leeg teams were designed on an ad hoc basis in the early days. The only major guiding principle was that the teams should gel with their backgrounds. Some decisions were taken rather quickly. I think the Snotlings suffer from this fact. Snotling Flingers were given Poison Dagger to represent the fact that in the background materials, snotlings are known for their harvesting and use of toxic spores. Likewise the emblematic Pump Wagon was designed to represent the wild erratic rumblings of their infamous contraption. Did the Snotlings really need a Poison Dagger player? I'm not sure but with the small number of Stunty Leeg teams available at the time and the fact that it fit into their background, it was a very easy decision to make the snotlings more fun by giving it to them. Did the Pump Wagon need General access? I think Klipp made a mistake on this one, especially since the Fanatic didn't have General access. I think this case study goes to show that you can't base a team solely on Fluff. Uniqueness, Novel playing style and balance must also be taken into consideration. When you combine all of these elements you get a superbly designed Stunty Leeg team.
Squig Herders: This team was a team that was truly designed by the FUMBBL community (not to imply that the teams I designed were solely my creation, I appreciated all the feedback that many people provided). Many different proposals cirulated for this team. I tried to take the best from the various proposals to create the list that I endorsed and that was later implemented. The team list was created to reflect that background. Squigs need handlers, thus Really Stupid. Squigs are wild vicious unpredictable creatures, thus OFAB. Squig's hoping ability is legendary, thus Pogo. Blood Bowl isn't supposed to involve non-humanoid monsters, thus the penalty roll. So, again, the background largely dictated how the team was created.
Strigoyan: I salvaged this from the dreaded "-ling" phenomena that so many people hated. Building on the original idea of others, I added the Strigoyan background to the team and tweaked the roster into something more palatable. I'd like to hope that people are reasonably satisfied with this team. I haven't heard too much negative feedback. I hope that's a sign that I hit a good balance and created a FUN roster.
Summary of the Stunty Leeg and my involvement:
2 teams ported in from Blood Bowl (Halfling & Goblin)
2 additional teams that I wasn't much involved in (Chaos Halflings, Goblin Cheaters)
3 teams whose later tweaking I played a role in (Skinks, Gnomes, Snotlings)
2 teams that my version of the team was later implemented (Squig Herders, Strigoyan)
4 teams that I was the main designer (Fairies, Skryre Slaves, Nurglings, Pygmy)
Countless Stunty Leeg proposals were dismissed because they didn't fit in with the Blood Bowl background
I hope this puts my comments into perspective to those of you who aren't familiar with my involvement in the Stunty Leeg.
As Always,
Evolve To Anarchism
World Social Forum |
_________________
Ignorance is Strength quis custodiet ipsos custodes As Always, Evolve To Anarchism |
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EvolveToAnarchism
Joined: Aug 02, 2003
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| Posted:
Dec 01, 2004 - 06:00 |
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Peikko has the power over Stunty Leeg. He can do whatever he wants to with it. He can choose to ignore the Vision of the Stunty Leeg that guided its incredibly expansion. He can choose to ignore all the time and effort that people put into developping Stunty Leeg in a coherent manner guided by a Vision. He can ignore rational arguments about any facet of Stunty Leeg if he so chooses. Would I like to see something into which I put so much time and effort eroded by poor choices? No, that's why I posted such a thorough and justified appeal to not ignore the Stunty Leeg's legacy. Do I expect Peikko to make poor choices in regards to the wonderful legacy he's been handed responsibility for? No, I think he's capable of taking well-reasoned feedback and using it to make sure that Stunty Leeg remains something of which I can be proud.
As Always,
Evolve To Anarchism
Znet |
_________________
Ignorance is Strength quis custodiet ipsos custodes As Always, Evolve To Anarchism |
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annachie
Joined: Jul 27, 2004
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| Posted:
Dec 02, 2004 - 09:58 |
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| annachie wrote: | | Here here, and well said. |
It still stands |
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Britnoth
Joined: Aug 02, 2003
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| Posted:
Dec 02, 2004 - 10:16 |
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| Quote: | | Countless Stunty Leeg proposals were dismissed because they didn't fit in with the Blood Bowl background |
That is why stunty leeg is so bad. Fluff before team balancing.
BTW I liked fairies before you screwed around with them. They went from a fun challenging team to a totally bash or be bashed dull one. For the sake of your fluff. |
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DropDeadFred
Joined: Mar 05, 2004
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| Posted:
Dec 02, 2004 - 10:27 |
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thats alot to read, im so lazy that i dident read it, but one thing
i love gnomes, give em 3 slayers and ill play gnomes all day long
secondly
stunty leeg is just a petty excuse to attack other fumbblers, jus drop let the people do there thing
its 9am im tired aint slept yet i dunno if that even makes sence but i tried |
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