celas
Joined: Aug 02, 2003
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 Posted:
Jan 12, 2005 - 06:02 |
 
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I have been working on developing stunty league team ideas from additional skaven clans. The Adepts of the Horned Rat are a team fielded by Clan Eshin. Other clans are busy preparing their own versions of teams. Please provide some constructive input before I consider playtesting. I want to thank Evo ahead of time for taking a look at the preliminary version of team and making suggestions to the roster.
Skaven Expansion
With the recent of induction and success of the Clan Skyre into the stunty league, skaven clan leaders of the inner council noted an inordinate amount of attention devoted to discussing Bloodbowl both before and after council meetings as well as at other political events. The other major clans concluded that they too, needed to field teams to expand their own political connections. Some clans, such as Eshin, also recognized that they could use the pitch as a training ground for their young assassins, while those from Moulder saw it as an opportunity to perfect and train both their beasts and those who handle them. Thus, clans Eshin, Moulder, and Pestilens all began to train and field bloodbowl teams.
Adepts of the Horned Rat
The assassins of Clan Eshin are merciless murderers greatly feared amongst Skaven. Each candidate assassin must complete a number of training missions in order to advance in the order. Clan Eshin Assassins are very deadly, expert at infiltrating Clans, assassinating their opponents, planting evidence, and then escaping. Now young skaven adepts, training to earn the right to enter the clan have infiltrated the pitch of bloodbowl. Clan leaders were skeptical of the idea at first, but eventually they saw it as means to train the young adepts in the art of moving quickly, evading enemies, and inflicting pain on others.
Assassin Adepts
Assassin Adepts are the entry position for this training and are rather unskilled, but have been some skill in hand to hand combat.
0-12 MV 6 ST 2 AG 3 AV 6 Dodge, Stunty A 40K
Culler
Those Adepts who have proven themselves in skirmishes against enemies, receive additional training in the arts of a Culler. Cullers are trained to pursue and murder particular enemies. Cullers specifically target and stalk conspirators or enemies around the maze-like Warrens for days on end, striking only when the moment is right, when the Culler can finish its bloody task in secluded place.
0-2 MV 6 ST 2 AG 3 AV 6 Dodge, Shadowing, Stunty A 60K
Night Lord's Apprentice
The Nightlords are the legendary leaders of Clan Eshin and they are also known as Deathmasters. They are among the most leathal killers in the Warhammer World and are at the same time the most secretive and silent ones. One nightlord apprentice accompanies each team for training purposes.
0-1 MV 8 ST 2 AG 4 AV 7 Dodge, Pro G,A 90K
Night Runners
Night Runnerss are the most highly trained and skilled class of assassins. They are experts at the art of infiltration and are trained to murder with poisons and a deadly weapon known as a Weeping Blade.
0-4 MV 7 ST 2 AG 3 AV 7 Dodge, Poison Dagger A 70K
Apoth: Yes
Rerolls: 60K |
Last edited by celas on %b %08, %2005 - %21:%Feb; edited 2 times in total |
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origami
Joined: Oct 14, 2003
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Jan 12, 2005 - 20:45 |
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AV 6 might me be better for the Night Runners. Otherwise, you have an incredibly fast (for stunty) team that also has pretty good armor on 6 of the 11 players that take the field. |
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Glomp
Joined: Jan 04, 2004
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Jan 12, 2005 - 20:49 |
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I like the Eschin fluff, but it'd be nice to see a wide range of teams in stunty.
One team is enough.
Other than that they seem to be pretty fair, if dull. Poisoned dagger has been done to death and pro on the night runners isn't much of a draw for me. |
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mutescreamer
Joined: Apr 09, 2004
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Jan 13, 2005 - 12:17 |
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I quite like the sound of them tbh
not a big fan of skyre either despite their uniqueness.
i reckons its a good shout...although not a great fan of the pro shout |
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Trif
Joined: Jun 10, 2004
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Jan 13, 2005 - 12:57 |
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no big hitters? one experienced big guy would go through this team like a knife through butter |
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hunter
Joined: Aug 11, 2003
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Jan 14, 2005 - 20:50 |
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Team looks pretty good, although I'd add another positional player who begins with Shadowing... seems extremely fitting fluff-wise, and will help add depth to the team.
Try: 0-4 Adept Shades MV 6 ST 2 AG 3 AV 6 Dodge, Stunty, Shadowing A 50K
I'd also add a Star Player for the team, the obvious choice being a Night Lord/ Deathmaster. Attributes and skills could be anything, although a few useful blocking/killing skills would be in order to emphasize its killing potential. For example, I'd expect such a player to have block, tackle, and claw, perhaps.
There is no indication of wizard allowance, but I'm assuming that they cannot be hired?
~hunter |
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celas
Joined: Aug 02, 2003
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Jan 16, 2005 - 07:05 |
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Hi all, thanks for the feedback. I would like to try to address each person's comments.
Origami: Skink teams are composed of faster players, all of whom have AV 7, so I am not sure if this is that big of a concern with the Adepts. BTW it is only 5 players with AV 7 and fluff-wise it represents the ability to proceed with killing and more skilled at evading harmful blows rather than more actual armor.
Inq: I agree that with one skaven team already there may be other ideas that seem more exciting. However, if you want to keep things consistent with the warhammer world, then there will most likely be multiple types of teams with similar races (e.g., other types of skaven, goblin tribes, etc.). Just look to ranked division and LRB teams; for example, do we need 4 types of elves, three brands of humans (i.e., humans, zons, norse), two types of chaos, 3 brands of undead (4 if you count vamps but at least the base players are different)? No we don't need the overlap, but it is consistent with the warhammer world. As far as the poison dagger comment, at least it has been removed from snotlings, and what other team really deserves a poison dagger more than Clan Eshin with their infamous Weeping Blades? Just because it seems a skill is overdone, it does not mean it has been done right (best example may be chainsaws on chaos flings......many people, including Evo, have noted that this player does not fit with the team....). I realize the team is not as cool sounding as many would like (see smurfs, and other teams that have appeal, but may not fit into the warhammer universe).
Mutescreamer: Thanks for your comment. It is nice to see someone likes them 
Trif: No big hitters.....? True, but again, skinks have but a single poison dagger while this team has four! How comfortable would you feel lining up your AV 8 Minotaur on the front line when 3 Poison daggers could be sitting across from it? Odds are good that at least one breaks armor and then a KO or worse. And if not, just think how potentially devastating 4 daggers could be on other stunties. Ridding the field of the opponents little guys can always lead the way for overpowering and subsequent fouling of a Big Guy. Also I realize this is a long shot, but with access to G skills, a double on the apprentice will most likely lead to Dauntless. As for whether an opposing Big Guy would go through this team like butter...I guess skinks have the same problems then, but less ways to address it.
Hunter: Thanks for the comments. I would like to include a positional player with shadowing, as the clan members are trained to be masters at following their prey, perhaps 0-2 of your proposed position may be acceptable, but I would make them 60K as shadowing on MV 6 would bother the hell out of races like snots, gnomes, and flings, and strig thralls. Not sure about the star player, but I like the idea and will give it more thought. No wizards allowed, just to clarify your final point.
Thanks to everyone for the feedback. If anyone else has comments, please post them. |
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paradocks
Joined: Jun 14, 2004
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Jan 16, 2005 - 08:24 |
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I like it, seems like a worthy addition as it would bring its own unique style of play to stunty leeg |
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the_grey_ghost
Joined: Oct 22, 2003
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Jan 16, 2005 - 08:59 |
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No it's not a worthy addition. I don't say it much but this team is pretty damn average. No big guy to take the hits and no really good advantage.
Sure four people with Poison dagger counts for something, but if they are not next to someone else then they can't use it without a blitz. Most of your players are pretty weak and it will turn into a Everyone stacks on the deathlord type game.
They look like they can't take hits and will just be aniliated.
Honestly fluff is good, redo the team. |
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Tinkywinky
Joined: Aug 25, 2003
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Jan 16, 2005 - 11:10 |
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They look a bit a like a slower, weaker skink team. |
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DrDrink
Joined: Jan 25, 2004
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Jan 16, 2005 - 11:44 |
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I really like the team concept and the only thing I'd like to see are at least 1 more character with normal skill access. Praying for a double on your Night Lord's Apprentice is kinda rough but with 2 of them you'll have a better chance at getting Dauntless. However if there are more than 2 of them, I'd think AG 4 is too high.
EDIT: Oh yeah, I kinda forgot about the poison dagger guys... er... that possibly nullifies everything I said  |
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celas
Joined: Aug 02, 2003
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Jan 16, 2005 - 17:08 |
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Yay! More comments. Let me address them again....
Paradocks: I agree that they will have a slightly unique style of play with placement of the Night Runners as highly crucial. However, I am not deluding myself to think that this will be hugely different than other stunty tactics. At this point, there are enough unique variety of stunty teams that it will be hard to have a totally unique style of play. So while you did not make this criticism, I realize that this could be a criticism of any new stunty team. Let me flesh out this argument a little more in a response to Tinkywinky.
Tinkywinky: You are right. They do look like a slower, weaker skink team. Weaker in the sense that the armor is lower, but stronger in the ability to inflict harm. Not quite as fast so you won't use traditional skink tactics. They will be able to get the ball from opponents slightly easier than skinks due to the poison dageers or a blitzing a slightly developed apprentice. On the same note, halflings are a slower, weaker goblin team. Lower armor, less MV, and I don't think that being able to choose between an Ogre and Treeman versus a Troll is that big of a difference. You may disagree, but in reality, how are the team tactics for flings and goblins, or chaos flings for that matter, any different from one another? Is the addition of two chainsaws to chaos flings that huge to make you say flings and chaos flings are totally different? Again, the answer is maybe as chainsaws can be powerful. But the strategy remains the same for the most part. So I believe the difference between the Adepts and Skinks is comparable, and I would argue slightly greater than those of the aforementioned teams. I appreciate your comment as it gives me a chance to address this legitimate concern.
the_grey_ghost: I see that you do not like the team. Adepts are not the only team without Big Guys to take hits (see gnomes, skinks, goblin cheaters, and arguably squigs unless you want your AV 7, blockless hoppers and squigs "asborbing" 2d blocks from block/tackle/claw/mb Beasts of Nurgle; at 70-90K a piece that is pricy to replace). Four poison daggers will count for something as you state. You point out that people will dodge away from them, much like people try to get away from Big Guys. Keep in mind that once you dodge away from a Big Buy, they can only attack you once with your aforementioned blitz so I guess then Big Guys are not that effective either by the same logic.... The difference here is you have to dodge away from 4 of them, not two. Once you have some Diving Tacklers on your team next to the daggers, this will pose a substantial risk to dodge away 4 times. Also, when these daggers are surrounding an Adept with the ball....how do you propose to get to him? Dodge away? No, you will have to be risky; maybe that means blitzing your reliable OFAB, Really Stupid, Bonehead, or Take Root Big Guy? Or maybe it means sending stunty players in to sit next to the daggers....a painful tradeoff. I hope you are seeing my point; I recognize your point and I see it as a tradeoff in style of play. As far as whether they will get annihilated, that will be seen in playtesting and adjustments made accordingly. Your final thought was for me to "redo" the team. I am wondering whether you have some suggestions to add, along with the flaws you perceive? I would appreciate more feedback from you and others. Please add comments that will help the team. If you only think the team stinks and should be scrapped, I will note that, but it will not be necessary to repeat yourself
DrDrink: Thanks for bumping the thread
The more I look at this team, the more I think that it will add a unique style of play. You have to be able to imagine how you would set up in offense and defense, and I believe there are a number of possibities. Please continue to add comments so that I may be ready to playtest the team.
For those of you that do not like the team, perhaps you would be willing to playtest a team against me I think it would be fun and a good way to prove or disprove our points. |
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celas
Joined: Aug 02, 2003
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Feb 08, 2005 - 21:17 |
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Hopefully this is the final edit to the team before serious playtesting. I added two Cullers, that fit the fluff and create more uniqueness for a team that actually should have a skill like shadowing and can use it effectively.
I wanted to address some concerns about the lack of hitting on this team (see Trif's concern above). I did some rough stats on how well a Poison Dagger works vs. a Big Guy. The following percentages indicate the result of a Dagger or an Ogre making a block (or stab) against a typical AV 6 stunty without block.
Dagger
Armor Not Broken 41.7%
KO 45.3%
CAS 13.0%
Ogre
Ogre Bonehead 17%
Ogre down or both Ogre and stunty down 3%
Pushback 45% (assuming you do not choose powskulls instead of pushbacks)
Knockdown and no armor break 14%
Stun 7%
KO 8%
CAS 5%
Please note that these are rough percentages, but I thought they were interesting and show how competitive the team could be. Start clearing off the opposing stunties and you have plenty of rats to deal with the Big Guys. |
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hunter
Joined: Aug 11, 2003
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Feb 10, 2005 - 17:38 |
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| Quote: |
I added two Cullers, that fit the fluff and create more uniqueness for a team that actually should have a skill like shadowing and can use it effectively.
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Excellent addition.
In regards to Daggers vs. Ogres, I like that this team has no Big Guys, and incorporates a different fun and dangerous angle. I will greatly miss my Spore Flingers when they are gone from my Snotling team, but Poison Dagger fits with this team better, if it can only be on one team. Start playtesting!
~hunter |
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thmbscrws
Joined: Aug 02, 2003
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Feb 12, 2005 - 04:04 |
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I really think stunty has more than enough secret weapon based teams as is. Taking into account that the dagger is probably the best secret weapon in the game when used in stunty and i think it's clear that this isn't the best angle to use for a team. If you are really desperatly wanting another skaven team why not work on a moulder team with rat ogres and mutants and stuff like that. |
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