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peikko



Joined: Aug 02, 2003

Post   Posted: Jan 11, 2010 - 13:40 Reply with quote Back to top

Since there seems to be little or none interest for anyone to take place of missing stunty leeg admin I propose following:

Form a group of 5-10 stunty leeg coaches who will try to come up with some revamp of stunty leeg. Lets say minimum requirement of 50 stunty leeg games played for these inviduals. Then we will set up private forum for these coaches who will consider needed changes to stunty leeg to attract more players.

For example revamping current races, do they need changes, are skinks and adepts nowadays too similiar. Should we redo stars to cheaper ones, maybe freebooter based like vampire count is right now for example.

My proposal is that anyone who meets the requirements of 50 played stunty leeg games and share interest on beeing part of this would nominate themselves in this thread and then we will have open election from these coaches if theres more than 5-10 interested ones.

Im ready to act as secretary for this group and give support on technical side with the site providing information what is possible and what is not, but will not have vote myself on outcome of this group.


Last edited by peikko on Jan 13, 2010 - 09:27; edited 1 time in total
Kalamona



Joined: Apr 21, 2005

Post   Posted: Jan 11, 2010 - 13:54 Reply with quote Back to top

maybe someone should contact christer first, coz when i applied to be a stunty admin he told me, that he has other applicants and he has somebody else in mind for the job, so we shouldnt act behind his back, maybe he has other plans.

if it is possible, i would apply to the group.

but as a staff can u do the changes that the group may come up with?
Pirog



Joined: Jul 13, 2006

Post   Posted: Jan 11, 2010 - 17:15 Reply with quote Back to top

The most important thing is to get someone elected that actually has the energy to follow through. That discounts me for example. I'd love to be part of some form of advisory group, but I neither have the time or technical skills to admin stunty league. (Not that I would win in an election either.)

An evaluation of the winds of change would be good. Did it turn out like expected or did perhaps the happy carnage that attracted some coaches to stunty league disappeared when it became more balanced and "serious". That the coaches who likes balanced and serious matches haven't flocked to stunty league after the change is quite evident.

With L being the place for league it would also possible to have both. No G access stunty in L and G access in S perhaps?
shadow46x2



Joined: Nov 22, 2003

Post   Posted: Jan 13, 2010 - 01:55 Reply with quote Back to top

*watches the ball moving*

--j

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origami wrote:
There is no god but Nuffle, and Shadow is his prophet.

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DGdabeast



Joined: Nov 21, 2009

Post   Posted: Jan 13, 2010 - 02:28 Reply with quote Back to top

Forest gobbos blow, and skinks/adepts are way too similar.
Dalfort



Joined: Jun 23, 2008

Post   Posted: Jan 13, 2010 - 02:38 Reply with quote Back to top

I vote for Pirog

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bxnyc



Joined: Jun 23, 2009

Post   Posted: Jan 13, 2010 - 02:49 Reply with quote Back to top

Pirog has some good comments, as well as kalamona. those would be some of the challenges that need to be sorted out beforehand. But i would have an interest in supporting/helping along what is needed. i am a newer coach and don't have 50 games but i love the occasional stunty carnage, much more fun and relaxed than [R] and would love to get more coaches lfg Smile
Sziro



Joined: May 07, 2005

Post   Posted: Jan 13, 2010 - 02:59 Reply with quote Back to top

Back in the days, I really liked stunty, and had my fair share of games in the division. The main reasons were the carnage, light hearted games, and fast games, fast game finding.

Probably it all went astray at the no G for bigguys reforms. It introduced cherry picking to the game. (Grandfathered/lucky teams who had bigguy block couldn t get games any more) On the other hand stunty is not suited to tournament play nor team building, so the associated golas like in R did not occur. Slowly coaches lost interest, as it was faster to get games in R, including me.

I think stunty would need really radical changes. Like some true thinking outside the box. Some ideas that pop up in this late hour:

- Stunty should not follow lrb as close as the other leagues. What s the point in clinging to something not designed, nor suited to stunty.
-- The flawed TR system should be replaced by something more suitable. (So more games could be found. Recovery matches made easier.) Also this new referance could calculate real value of block+tackle on a bigguy fr example (wich is far better than a +st).
-- No ageing? (It could attract the initial boost, a big coach pool to start the division.
-- Freebooters should be much more cheep. Like quarter of a full buy. (for more strategy, recovery, team tactics, team longevity)
-- Stars also redesigned. Introduce more tactical skills, that stunty players lack (kick, pass block, shadowing, stand firm, piling on)
- Redesign roosters
-- Allow rr for bigguys? (So a block is not that almighty gamewinning boost)
-- Disallow block and tackle for bigguys, even on double.
-- Let stunty be st3 and bigguys st6?
-- More secret weapons?, more diversity (Allow a big pool of secret weapons to all teams. Like it is a 0-1 or 0-2 secret weapon player, and chaos halflings could get pogo stick or poisoned dagger instead a saw, if they wish.)
-- Redesign all rooster at the same time. From clean sheet.
- Design tournaments with twists. Christer could code stuff like inserting a zombie to a game or random mutation or no injuries. It is only a step from including it only in specific tournament games. You would play a tournament for the fun, chaos and mayhem of it, and not because you can win bragging rights or glittering prizes. Some really unique and fun challange come into mind, if Christer is willing to do it / would let someone do it.
- Optional blackbox? With increased prizes, like +5000 for each game played in a blackbox participation.
- Force retire all grandfathered teams. Clean start.

? marked as probably bad/silly idea
These are only ideas, I ll get on some heavy thinking tomarrow, after i finish my last exam Smile Hopefully I can come up with something useful. By the way I would gladly help the project, as I really whant to see stunty alive again.

Sziro
harvestmouse



Joined: May 13, 2007

Post   Posted: Jan 13, 2010 - 03:06 Reply with quote Back to top

Pirog wrote:
The most important thing is to get someone elected that actually has the energy to follow through. That discounts me for example. I'd love to be part of some form of advisory group, but I neither have the time or technical skills to admin stunty league. (Not that I would win in an election either.)

An evaluation of the winds of change would be good. Did it turn out like expected or did perhaps the happy carnage that attracted some coaches to stunty league disappeared when it became more balanced and "serious". That the coaches who likes balanced and serious matches haven't flocked to stunty league after the change is quite evident.

With L being the place for league it would also possible to have both. No G access stunty in L and G access in S perhaps?


I like this idea, but would personally like to see it go the other way. With them more competitive in league, so they could compete against the weaker lrb teams and therefore be an option for joint competitions.
Pirog



Joined: Jul 13, 2006

Post   Posted: Jan 13, 2010 - 03:46 Reply with quote Back to top

harvestmouse,

That would of course be a possible option as well. It would perhaps put off the balance between stunty league teams and the official LRB stunty teams though.
shadow46x2



Joined: Nov 22, 2003

Post   Posted: Jan 13, 2010 - 03:59 Reply with quote Back to top

there's a problem with modifying stunty rosters so that they can compete with LRB teams....

stunty has very little balance....

some times are drastically underpowered, some are vastly overpowered...

when you compare them to LRB teams, the underpoweredness is increased quite dramatically....while you might be able to balance stunty within itself, when you combine with it with dorfs/norse/amazons/cds, etc etc, the obvious shortcomings(no pun intended) of stunty teams is pretty obvious...why do you think gobbos/flings are nowhere near as successful as the rest of the LRB races?....

stunty was created as an alternative to LRB....something unique that only FUMBBL has...changing stunty with LRB in mind helps eliminate that personality and uniqueness that stunty maintains....

we have enough LRB focused realms on fumbbl...we don't need another one...particularly at the cost of losing one of FUMBBL's trademarks...

--j

_________________
origami wrote:
There is no god but Nuffle, and Shadow is his prophet.

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Espionage



Joined: Jun 08, 2005

Post   Posted: Jan 13, 2010 - 04:06 Reply with quote Back to top

I've got 50 stunty games. I would like to be on a commitee to popularise stunty.
shadow46x2



Joined: Nov 22, 2003

Post   Posted: Jan 13, 2010 - 04:14 Reply with quote Back to top

a few opinions on your ideas...
Sziro wrote:
- Stunty should not follow lrb as close as the other leagues. What s the point in clinging to something not designed, nor suited to stunty.


see my previous post in regards to this...can't agree more...

Sziro wrote:
-- The flawed TR system should be replaced by something more suitable. (So more games could be found. Recovery matches made easier.) Also this new referance could calculate real value of block+tackle on a bigguy fr example (wich is far better than a +st).


the only downside to this is the resources it would take designing it and implementing it...as far as i'm aware, christer is the only one who has coding access to the site(peikko maybe?), so it would rely on him to implement the changes...and he's got his hands full working on plenty of other things, adding another pretty major code overhaul would probably drive him batty...

Sziro wrote:
-- No ageing? (It could attract the initial boost, a big coach pool to start the division.


not a bad idea, on stunties...

no aging on big guys could be pretty detrimental...big guys are pretty tough to take down, particularly by teams that have no big guys, so there needs to be some mechanism in place for turnover, instead of just praying they kill themselves off...

Sziro wrote:
-- Freebooters should be much more cheep. Like quarter of a full buy. (for more strategy, recovery, team tactics, team longevity)


a quarter of a full buy?...when some stunties are 40K, you're talking about 10K booters?...why bother buying regular players when you can field an entire team with frebooters every match?...

the cost of most stunties is managable enough that barring the msot disastrous games, most teams can rebuild pretty easily...

Sziro wrote:
-- Stars also redesigned. Introduce more tactical skills, that stunty players lack (kick, pass block, shadowing, stand firm, piling on)


the last revamp implemented some of this, and i bet the next revamp might include some of this as well...

Sziro wrote:
- Redesign rosters


fyi guys...it's a roster, not a rooster Wink...a rooster is on a farm Wink

Sziro wrote:
-- Allow rr for bigguys? (So a block is not that almighty gamewinning boost)


rr's on big guys, i can't see happening...they're already pulling 3d blocks on most everything they hit, and they've got a distinct advantage over the little guys already...why help them even more?...

Sziro wrote:
-- Disallow block and tackle for bigguys, even on double.


yeah, here's the rub...

the last revamp removed G access for big guys, and a lot of the older coaches left the division....the older coaches didn't want it to happen, "newer" coaches wanted it to happn, but once it did, the newer coaches didn't start playing stunty anyways...

so removing G access, in essence, did nothing but turn away the coaches who were supporting the division, and brought in very little new blood, if any...

while a complete return to the old big guys may be too much..what about a modified version?

Sziro wrote:
-- Let stunty be st3 and bigguys st6?


um..why?...

Sziro wrote:
-- More secret weapons?, more diversity (Allow a big pool of secret weapons to all teams. Like it is a 0-1 or 0-2 secret weapon player, and chaos halflings could get pogo stick or poisoned dagger instead a saw, if they wish.)


i think the idea of a "pool" of players has been brought up to christer in the past, and it got ixnayed, i believe due to coding issues predominantly...

that being said...nothing is preventing roster updates or new rosters from bringing in new weapons...

i personally like the idea of every race having some sort of weaponry on the field...

Sziro wrote:
-- Redesign all roster at the same time. From clean sheet.


redesign all rosters, i can agree with...at the same time, that's a little different...

there's quite a few races in stunty, and doing a massive revamp of the entire league in one fell swoop is an enormous undertaking...not only redesigning each race and keeping their individual identity, but redesigning them all in coordination with others, without having any ability to see how the changes are benefiting or hindering the division...

a tiered approach would be a better idea...fixing the biggest flaws first, monitoring how those pan out, then tweaking the changes & moving to the next group, so on and so forth...

Sziro wrote:
- Design tournaments with twists. Christer could code stuff like inserting a zombie to a game or random mutation or no injuries. It is only a step from including it only in specific tournament games. You would play a tournament for the fun, chaos and mayhem of it, and not because you can win bragging rights or glittering prizes. Some really unique and fun challange come into mind, if Christer is willing to do it / would let someone do it.


stunty tournaments have always had their own unique flair in the past, and once the revamps come through, i can see tourneys being a part of that revamp, and having their own changes included as well...

Sziro wrote:
- Optional blackbox? With increased prizes, like +5000 for each game played in a blackbox participation.


eh, that'd include a new division...[SB] or something....which would help to dilute an already small niche crowd as is...

current [B] division has few participants as is, and they're supported by arguably the largest division on the site...i'd have a hard time seeing a [B] stunty division having a large support crowd...

Sziro wrote:
- Force retire all grandfathered teams. Clean start.


won't happen...why should old teams have to be ixnayed to usher in a new era?

all in all...not a bad list Smile

--j

_________________
origami wrote:
There is no god but Nuffle, and Shadow is his prophet.

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Kalamona



Joined: Apr 21, 2005

Post   Posted: Jan 13, 2010 - 08:44 Reply with quote Back to top

- reform - re-reform

i think we should forget about it. we all had our opinion back then... but it is over now. i can imagine the same thing like we had before the reform. "i would play if they didnt have G skills" or now "i would play if they had G skills". people didnt come after the change, and i feel the same about a re-reform. it is not a solution.

- no aging

really good idea on stunties. even though most of them would never see 31 spp anyway Smile but it is annoying that the heroes who manage to survive those mighty blows need to retire due to aging. but same on big guys is a big no-no.

- tournaments

need them badly. advertised, open format tournaments with fun prices attract many people. prices like: stunty players, secret weapons, skills

- rosters

start from clean sheets? it isnt that bad. there are a few teams that need changing or even to be deleted, but most of them are just good to play. maybe there are some really hard to win match ups (snotling vs fairies or skinks) but oh well, the leeg was never balanced... and never will i think, but who cares.

- tr/ts

some of my offers were refused for ts reasons, but they are mainly new coaches to stunty and just dont understand ts does not matter in the leeg. the formula that counts ts in the leeg is the same as in ranked i think. and it is no way even close to accurate. maybe with a huge work someone could come with a new ts counter just for stunty, but then comes the question what for? then there would be even more thinking "hmmm 15 ts difference... should i play him?"

for the same reason (bad ts counter) a black box like division is not going to happen i think.

- recovery match in stunty

you wha...?

- stars

i think all of the teams should have a fairly wide choice of star players with or without secret weapons.
shadow46x2



Joined: Nov 22, 2003

Post   Posted: Jan 13, 2010 - 09:06 Reply with quote Back to top

as far as TR/TS is concerned...i like the idea of wiping TS from the sheet entirely...

the TS formula is completely borked when it comes to stunties...perfect example is the horrors roster...i had a horrors team that had 175TS after 4 games...that's entirely inaccurate, particularly when you start taking into account player cost, "viability", etc etc..there's too many variables in stunty that transcend basic statistics, that the TS formula has no ability to take into account...

that being said...TS is a decent tool when trying to find fairness in other divisions, but in stunty, other than coaches employing common sense, there is no real hard and fast mechanic for finding a fair match...

the best solution would be for coaches to set aside their LRB tendencies that lean towards being more bloodthirsty, and embrace a "fair" attitude when offering matches...sadly, i think that's a huge pipe dream...while there are an enormous amount of coaches on this site that are genuinely good people, and don't look to take advantage of a situation, there are enough that *do* want an unfair advantage that asking people to play fair isn't a reasonable solution...

--j

_________________
origami wrote:
There is no god but Nuffle, and Shadow is his prophet.

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