Tyrant
Joined: Oct 01, 2004
|
 Posted:
Mar 17, 2005 - 00:48 |
 
|
I have to call it a night but will give it some thought...others are welcome to comment this aswell...'night folks  |
_________________
"I don't care what you're doing, so much as the idiotic way you're doing it" |
|
Karhumies
Joined: Oct 17, 2004
|
| Posted:
Mar 17, 2005 - 00:52 |
|
I suggest the Kislev Classics is the first KO tourney.
I also suggest the Swiss round 1 pairings go according to the total points each coach has collected in the league. #1 plays vs #2, #3 vs #4 and so on. This might mean some Elf vs mangle matches but hey, you don't get knocked off if you lose.
Let's have a vote!
edit: good night to everyone! |
|
|
Prymja
Joined: Feb 25, 2005
|
| Posted:
Mar 17, 2005 - 05:33 |
|
OK first off, sorry I had to leave for a while, to play Blood Bowl table top.
I also should have cleared it a little better.
We all seemed worried that once to the Grudge Bowl, teams would truely have a greater advantage in TR, the teams that have gotten furthest in Tournies up to there. So to seperate it, and make this one truely the Big Tourny lets try something like this.
Round 1- A Round Robin grouping, group to be determined at time, because of how many teams.
Round 2- A KO tourny, all teams being seeded by where they came out of the round Robin. All teams that participated in the Round Robin will be given a spot.
This will allow the teams that are in the middle a chance to pull off an upset and take the Grudge Bowl Championship. Nothing here is to qualify for the Skavenblight, that is a tourny all its own. This makes the one tourny that everyone wants in on to be the best chance for even newer teams to get to the top. Then make the Skavenblight a tourny for all the winners of the past Tournies, kinda like a pro bowl.
Thats my thought, I hope I made it clearer, because now I have to go work on getting a Warhammer league up and running, and using little to no rules from all the campgains out there lol.
Night all |
|
|
Tyrant
Joined: Oct 01, 2004
|
| Posted:
Mar 17, 2005 - 08:24 |
|
Yay...an elf coach joined, making the count 12 to 8  (welcome dagda331)
I have had a good nights sleep and decided that the changes that I will make to this tournament, will be fairly minor ones at this point (out of respect to all that have joined). Futher changes will ofcourse be possible after the first season is under the belt.
As for your suggestion Prymja. It is dearly noted, but i will run the first tournament of the Great Grudge Bowl like an NFL type tournament (where only the top 1,2 or 3 teams progress, depending on the size of the division), and see how it plays out.
The higher TR teams will of course have an advantage in this first season coming in to the Great Grudge Bowl (and so they should) but I think i will even out with time. Since the lower TR teams will have more tourneys to compete in. And the teams who make it to the playoffs will still have a chance to pull an upset over higher TR teams.
As for adding a Swiss tourney. I would like to do so if we could do it without actually adding another KO tourney, since i fear that maybe the season could become a bit too long that way.
So how about maybe changing the Worlds Edge Mountains Monumental to a swiss, move it behind the Eadsplitta Cup. Then let the Kislev Classics and Loren Forest Faerie Folk Cup be played simultainiosly, and tweak the TR for the 2 tourneys to: lets say Fairie Cup - TR 150/Kislev Classics - TR 125.
Dawn Of Blood Challenge
Kislev Cup (TR max 125)/Loren Forest Faerie Folk Cup(TR max 150)
Worlds Edge Mountains Monumental Classic (Swiss)
Tribal 'Eadsplitta Cup (KO TR max 200)
Great Grudge Bowl....
How does that sound? I feel that gives the smaller teams some more tournament to paticipate in (and a chance to get futher). |
_________________
"I don't care what you're doing, so much as the idiotic way you're doing it" |
|
Karhumies
Joined: Oct 17, 2004
|
| Posted:
Mar 17, 2005 - 09:28 |
|
At this point I would like to thank you, Tyrant, for being such a nice and thoughtful tournament organiser. You really listen to the players' opinions, although in the end this is your league and you get to decide how it is to be run.
I think the amount and types of tournaments to be held is now settled. I am very satisfied with the format posted above by Tyrant. If anyone has something else to suggest, go ahead. I think that the next big changes should be made after season 1 is finished. By then we know what works and what doesn't.
However, I still have some things in mind about the points rewarded after each match.
1) I think that Swiss and round robin tourneys should have a similar point chart, although the Swiss winner (and runner-ups?) may be given a few extra points. Reason: there are semis and finals in Swiss, unlike in round robin.
I think that the points given in round robin should be changed a bit. Here are my suggestions:
2)I have found out that giving 1 point for a loss in RR is a really good way to get coaches play more matches against tough opponents. If you get nothing for a loss, people will cherry-pick as much as possible and not even bother to play against teams with an equal or higher TR than themselves. More matches mean more spp for everybody, winners and losers alike.
3)If you concede mid-game in RR, in my opinion the player should not be given negative points. You should be given 1 point for a loss because if you finish an ugly match, you give your opponent a chance to gain more spp. You should be awarded 0 points for concede, because in the beginning most teams do not have an apoth and if one of your guys dies, one gets -ST and 1 is BH and your opponent begins fouling with Get the ref!, you wish to stop the match to have a team in the future. If you get -5 points for mid-game concede, people will either finish the game, have a sad-looking team and leave the league OR be at a HUGE disadvantage (-5 points) just for keeping their team intact.
Side effect/bad sides: allows "recovery" matches for specifically elven teams, where the coach concedes on turn 1, giving his opponent 3 points and 2 MVPs.
4)I believe that no matter what the outcome of the matches is, an equal amount of total points should be awarded in round robin. Here is what I mean: ATM winner gets 3 points, loser 0. Total of points awarded: 3. If the players tie, each player gets 1 point. Total points awarded: 2. One point "disappeared" somewhere when compared to a match in which one player wins. If tied matches are not valued high enough, slow teams like Dwarves and Khemri will be at a HUGE disadvantage versus any team during the round robins (mainly first one) because in the beginning they get many ties.
An example of an equal amount of total points being awarded in round robin: 0 points for mid-game concede, 1 point for loss, 3 points for tie, 5 points for win.
In the case one of the players wins 1-0: Winner gets 5 points, loser gets 1. Total points awarded: 6.
Tied match: each player gets 3 points. Total points awarded: 6.
5)I suggest the round robin score chart to be as follows: 0 points for mid-game concede, 1 point for loss, 3 points for tie, 5 points for win.
Then, the KO tourneys. Let's take an example scenario of current points system:
Player A loses his first round 2-0. He gets spp from one match only and is awarded -2 points +/- CAS points.
His opponent, Player B, wins his first match 2-0, wins his second match 2-1 and loses his third match 0-1. He gets spp from three games and gets 11+10-1 points= a whopping 20 points+CAS points from three matches.
Now, compare the gap created between these two players in just three games. If you were Player A, how would you catch up during a round robin or a swiss?
7) In my opinion, in the KO tourneys, the gap in points between a loser and a winner of a round 1 match should be made smaller. Reason: the loser gets nothing. The winner gets more matches=more spp and more money. Those are a reward in itself.
edit: I think that 1 point for a TD=1 point for a CAS favors bashy teams too much in KO tourneys. Consider this: Elves win 1-0, suffering 4 CAS. The opponent did not even try to score at any point during the game. Elves get 9win+1TD difference-3CAS difference= 7 points and at least 2-3 injured players for next match-up. They lose the next match 1-3, suffering 4 more CAS. 0 points loss -2 point TD difference -3 points CAS difference = -5 points. Total points from the KO tourney: 7-5= total 2 points and loads of injuries.
The Elf round 1 loser, say Dwarves, receives following total points: 0 loss- 1 TD difference +3 CAS difference = total 2 points and NO injuries for next KO tournament.
7b) I think that TDs should be valued more in the KO tournies, no matter who makes them. Winning counts, not CAS. Perhaps players could be rewarded for each TD they make with an upper limit and no penalty if you let the opponent score? This way players would play for the ball, not for the headcount. More goals means more increase in fan factor. More fan factor means more money. More money means higher TR.
8 ) If KO "normal" round winner gets less points than currently, IMO the winner of the whole KO tournament should get a load of bonus points due to being so great he won the whole tournament. The amount of points given can be different in all KO tournaments. Example: Skavenblight KO winner gets much more points than the pancy Forest Fairie winner.
An optional thing I leave for the organiser to decide: give out more points for the winner of 'Eadsplitta than to the winner of Forest Fairie? Reason: 'Eadsplitta has tougher, high TR teams. If Eadsplitta winner and Forest Fairie winner get the smae amount of points, any team who is just over 150 in TR will lower their TR to 150 in hopes of easy matches=easy points. It is also much more dangerous to play in Eadsplitta and I think the competitors should be rewarded even if just for endangering their pesky Elf team. 
However, I think there are fluff reasons that might be against this. I leave this matter to Tyrant to decide.
9) KO tournament conceders, in-game or out-game, should be HEAVILY punished. They deprive their opponents from TD and CAS points. They deprive their opponents from getting more spp and because of the concede the other player will have less skills against his/her next round opponent. Chickening out could be punished even more during 'Eadsplitta Cup, because of fluff reasons.
This is a long post but I hope someone reads it through. Feel free to post your opinions about my suggestions and remember that in the end Tyrant decides what happens!
Have a nice day at school, work or wherever you are. |
|
|
CoachDan
Joined: Feb 21, 2005
|
| Posted:
Mar 17, 2005 - 10:09 |
|
I agree with everything Karhumies! Thank you! |
_________________
Ehhmm..... |
|
DanTitan76
Joined: Nov 06, 2004
|
| Posted:
Mar 17, 2005 - 10:21 |
|
Im joining in with Khemri.... (I was tempted to get some elf.... but dont like them to much (to many ones in my dices  ))
Dan Titan |
|
|
Aconite
Joined: Jun 03, 2004
|
| Posted:
Mar 17, 2005 - 10:26 |
|
... Had liked the fact that there were no Khemri or Ogres taking part in this... Never mind |
_________________
Dejected, he hangs up the phone. "Air Holes. Remember the air holes", the online pet store owner mutters while slapping his forehead.
(Brad Osberg) |
|
Tyrant
Joined: Oct 01, 2004
|
| Posted:
Mar 17, 2005 - 10:53 |
|
I have a lecture in a little while but i'll just answer a few of the points quickly (others I will have to take up later).
1) agreed. (just for the record, both round rubins will have a playoff type finish to them, much like the nfl works. Think it's specified in the group page..)
2) noted. Cherry picking will not be possible since all matchups are fixed (no Open Round Rubin).
3) maybe youre right, will consider it (btw. couldn't we achieve the same effect just by lowering the -5 penalty?)
4) I kinda liked the idea that the quicker teams were at an advantage (partly because their teams are more fragile). But if people like this idea better, my dwarven team won't be opposing
5) I haddn't really though of keeping an overall score seperate of all tournaments. But i can se your point, I will make sure the KO, Round Rubin and Swiss all have the same kind of win/tie/loss point scale (only with minor differences like +1 for TD...in fact I might tone down the KO win/tie/loss reward).
6) Toning down the KO points given is a good idea. A team can never get under 0 points for TD or Cas against.
7) Im reluctant to remove Cas points given. I could however lower the max value to 2 and raise the max TD value to 4. I think removing the Cas points would become a huge advantage for agility teams.
 Since i havent tried running a tournament before i don't know how the possibilities are for rewarding tournament winners. But I also had some plans about giving the winnning team some bonusses. And balancing the bonusses to the tournament size is a preferred.
9) Amen!
I don't know if I got around it all. But will check back later... |
_________________
"I don't care what you're doing, so much as the idiotic way you're doing it" |
|
Tyrant
Joined: Oct 01, 2004
|
| Posted:
Mar 17, 2005 - 11:03 |
|
| Aconite wrote: | | ... Had liked the fact that there were no Khemri or Ogres taking part in this... Never mind |
A fact i kinda liked too...so ive halved the amount of Khemri and Ogres allowed. Only 1 of each allowed at the moment. And now those slots are filled.
DanTitan76, welcome aboard! (is that a flamehead halfling you have as your avatar?)
updated count: 13 to 8 |
_________________
"I don't care what you're doing, so much as the idiotic way you're doing it"
Last edited by Tyrant on %b %17, %2005 - %11:%Mar; edited 1 time in total |
|
Tyrant
Joined: Oct 01, 2004
|
| Posted:
Mar 17, 2005 - 11:14 |
|
To all coaches who still might wanna join, the free races are at the moment:
Amazon (2), Chaos (1), Dark Elf (2), Elf (2), Goblin (2), Halfling (2), Lizardmen (1), Necromantic (2), Norse (2), Skaven (1), Vampire (2)
so if you see anything you like, don't hesitate to sign up. The season starts monday (and the first round will be a bit prolonged so that people going on vacation in the easter holliday still have a chance to participate). |
_________________
"I don't care what you're doing, so much as the idiotic way you're doing it" |
|
Karhumies
Joined: Oct 17, 2004
|
| Posted:
Mar 17, 2005 - 11:30 |
|
|
Tyrant
Joined: Oct 01, 2004
|
| Posted:
Mar 17, 2005 - 11:39 |
|
oh and one last thing: I will be sending out a group PM asking you to apply your team to the Dawn Of Blood Challenge.
So for your team to participate in the tournament you have to reply to the message with subject: "your team name"/"tourney name you wanna join in" (will acctually only be used when more turneys are playing at the same time).
Somthing like this: Subject: "Kings Of Old/DOBC". Then your team will be applied to the tournament, and you will be expected to participate
I will send the PM out later today. |
_________________
"I don't care what you're doing, so much as the idiotic way you're doing it" |
|
Karhumies
Joined: Oct 17, 2004
|
| Posted:
Mar 17, 2005 - 15:07 |
|
I had ample time during my Psychology lessons, so I made a suggestion of score format for the league.
Any suggestions are welcome and in the end Tyrant has the final word of how things are going to be run.
Here we go:
I) General score table (RR/Swiss/KO)
5points - win
3p - tie
1p - loss
II) Bonus points given in the KO tournament matches and in the Swiss/Fixed Round Robin semis and finals
+1 for each TD done (max. 3)
+1 for each CAS done [is apo'd one counted?] (max. 2)
Maximum amount of points that can be acquired from a normal KO match:
win, 3 TDs and 2 CAS = 5+3+2 = 10 points.
-This table means that once Elves make 3 goals, they will have to CAS for extra points. Khemri will have to score to get extra points after inflicting two CAS.
-Special KO bonus point charts will be used in the 'Eadsplitta cup (more points from CAS, less from TDs) and Forest Cup (more points from TDs, less from CAS). These are described in the tournament description.
III) Tourney winners
- Special prizes are awarded depending on the tournament.
IV) Not showing up for the match
Loser: Full loss. Penalty of -5 points.
Winner: Full win. RR/Swiss: 5 points. Any KO match or the RR/Swiss semis and finals: 7 points (is equal to 1-0 win+1 CAS or 2-0 win with no CAS)
If possible, the winner should be given a fake match against a general Test team created by the league organiser (3 linos in LOS, other players will stand deep backfield trying to prevent opponent from scoring a one-turner). The test team will concede during turn 1, allowing the winner to get money for the match and 2 MVP's. Points are not awarded for any goals or CAS made in the turn 1 or the Blitz! kickoff turn of the fake match, although the players can acquire spp that way.
V) Mid-game concede in a KO tourney or in the Swiss/RR semi and finals
loser: All points acquired from current match are lost. -5 points.
winner: +5 for the win AND the winner gets to keep all points acquired from the current match (minimum of 7 points total =the same amount if the opponent never showed up).
Chickening out is punished more severely during the 'Eadsplitta Cup. Check the tournament description for details.
VI) Mid-game concede in a regular Round Robin or Swiss match
Loser: 0 points are awarded to the loser.
-Note: If you lose but play the match to the end, you get one point.
Winner: Full win. 5 points.
VII) Special rule suggestions for tournaments
'Eadsplitta special rules:
-Star players are allowed in the roster
-Bonus point table used in all KO matches is replaced by the following table:
+1 for each TD done (max. 2) [Note: in normal KO match, maximum is 3]
+1 for each CAS done (max. 5) [Note: in normal Ko match, maximum is 2]
-Not showing up for the match:
loser: -8 points, winner: +8 points (equals to 1-0 win with 2 CAS done)
-Forcing opponent to concede mid-game:
Winner gets to keep all points acquired during the match. Instead of the normal +5 points for a win, he gets +10 points for being a brutal guy, who loves Blood Bowl.
Loser loses all points acquired during the match. He gets a penalty of -7 points. [Note: Not showing up for the match is -8 points. This means people SHOULD arrive to play the match, even if to concede on turn one]
Max. points that can be acquired from a single regular match during the tourney:
Win, 5 CAS and 2 TDs made = 5+5+2 =12 points
[Note: Forcing your opponent to concede allows you to gain more points than this]
Fairy Folk special rules:
-No Dirty Players are allowed in the roster. If there is one, the team is transferred to 'Eadsplitta Cup regardless of the team's TR.
-Bonus point table used in all KO matches is replaced with the following table:
+1 point for each TD done (max. 4) [Note: in a normal KO match the maximum is 3.]
+1 point for each CAS done (max. 1) [Note: in a normal Ko match the maximum is 2.]
Max. points that can be acquired from a single regular match during the tourney:
Win, 4 TDs and 1 CAS made = 5+4+1 = 10 points.
Feel free to post your opinions about my ideas! |
|
|
Mr_QB
Joined: Jul 16, 2004
|
| Posted:
Mar 17, 2005 - 15:56 |
|
it all sounds good to me
good work all |
_________________
Nuffle should have stayed in his cursed mother's womb, she should have had pity on our lost souls and killed nuffle while she still had the chance. |
|
|
|
| |
FUMBBL HAIKU'S
Search
