Wizard
Joined: Jul 09, 2004
|
 Posted:
Mar 21, 2005 - 01:18 |
 
|
| Quote: |
Circular:
Hmm... guess I run a pretty crappy defense then... Wink
|
You and me both mate.
I ALWAYS leave he flanks open with my pro elf. And i recover the ball 9/10 times, becuase when you leave the flanks open the opponent feels obliged to send a few either side, and then thats when you react from the middle and beat the hell out of A) the ball carrier h left in the end zone (ma8 is great) B) leap in and smash the guy with the ball, then use leap and high ag guy to recover the ball and pass it to an active player C) cage around them and setup the passblockers and send someone after the ball carrier.
Ultimatly i always put pressure on from the first turn, and there team is usually split between 2 flanks.
Watch some of my replays for the idea if you like - but it works more often than not.
So as for the theory of crappy defence, see you on the field...
| Quote: |
Jensen:
IMHO leaving your flanks open in your defence (ie. not putting players in the wide zones when you setup for defence) is pretty crappy defence. Yet I see so many coaches doing it. |
|
_________________
"As long as one person lives in darkness then it seems to be a responsibility to tell other people." |
|
Kyyberi
Joined: Nov 27, 2004
|
| Posted:
Mar 21, 2005 - 02:20 |
|
There can't be any given answer to this matter. It all depends on teams, players, tactics and skills. You should ALWAYS adjust and plan your strategy according to your opponent. Below are few things that I think is important when thinking about flanks:
When facing a team that has frenzy, I'm very careful with my flanks. Cos it's so easy to lose your players for skilled coach who has frenzy or two.
Bashy teams usually like to play with cage. And they form the cage either to the center or to the side. And if you put some of your players to flanks, the other flank will be useless for first turn. Usually. But then again, that could be your strategy if you have good players for that. With very mobile teams and kick you could try to kick the ball to the opposite corner of the cage-side, and try to rush there to spoil your opponents ball-picking.
The most important thing is to remember that when developing your team and choosing skills, keep in mind what your strategies are in different situations. If your skills don't add up with your strategy (and vice versa), you will lose more than often to an opponent whose team does that. |
_________________
Shepherd says some wise words... |
|
Eddy
Joined: Aug 04, 2004
|
| Posted:
Mar 21, 2005 - 02:42 |
|
i defend like that pretty much all the time. except against weak, fast teams, and even then, i usually only put one guy on each flank.
it's all nice and cool to talk about putting your players in such position, Colin, but what about your middle, then ? what about the fact that they can run through after a series of block on the LoS ? what about the fact that, if you have no sidestep/stand firm, you virtually cannot prevent them from going through, and then you have a spread out team which cannot react ?
i concentrate my players in the middle, almost all the time, because then i can react to any situation: counter, support on one side, covering all the field, etc. |
_________________
'The generation of random numbers is too important to be left to chance.'
Robert R. Coveyou |
|
zredna
Joined: Aug 02, 2003
|
| Posted:
Mar 21, 2005 - 02:43 |
|
I always cover the flanks if I have a full team. In my opnion its easier to score along the sidline than in the midle, there for I try to score along the llines. And I try to deflect my oponent to go for the center. But if a coach think its easier to score in the midle that its obvious that he trys to deflect the oponent to one side.
Zredna |
|
|
origami
Joined: Oct 14, 2003
|
| Posted:
Mar 21, 2005 - 02:43 |
|
I like to cover the flanks with my speedy teams because it gives me the best opportunity to take advantage of a blitz, failed pickup, dropped pass, etc. It seems to have worked for me so far. When people leave their flanks open vs my speedy teams, it usually results in me scoring.
I dislike the old "send a bunch of receivers downfield while giving the ball to a thrower in your backfield" tactic. It forces too many rolls in a single turn and, worse, failing any of those rolls probably means that your opponent will recover the ball. I prefer to run several players down the sideline, forming a loose screen around the guy with the ball. This is made tougher by an opponent who is fast and keeps players far enough back to get in front of your cage, but it still works pretty well even then. This means that I love it when I see my opponent giving me free reign on the sidelines.
| CircularLogic wrote: | | Even against woodelves it works. You just have to know what you are doing and need the right skills. |
Could you post the link to a match where you have stopped woodelves using this tactic? I'd like to see it in action. |
|
|
Azurus
Joined: Aug 02, 2003
|
| Posted:
Mar 21, 2005 - 12:49 |
|
With a full squad I will always protect the sidelines. I don't agree with the 'your players won't be able to reach the other side if the oppo goes down that flank' because they shouldn't need to. If your quicker players (blitzers hopefully) are in the centre, they should be enough, and if your oppo goes down one flank exclusively then they're making a mistake since the guys you've left on the 'empty' side will be able to pressure him from the side or behind.
With my DEs I tend to hang back with all but three linemen, and then set up an appropriate defence depending on the oppo's choices during the first turn. This can hurt if your opponent is a bashy team and smart enough to move his cage into the empty space you've given him, but a lot of coaches are so used to caging just behind the LOS that they'll do it anyway, giving you free reign to choose your ground.
Haven't yet figured out how to defend with my Chaos, but they haven't suffered for it so far. |
_________________
*This is a public safety announcement. Azurus is a cynical, sarcastic idiot. Please ignore any and everything he may say. Thank you for your attention.* |
|
Colin
Joined: Aug 02, 2003
|
| Posted:
Mar 21, 2005 - 23:43 |
|
I think we'll beg to differ on this one. I tried looking for a game to illustrate my point about the ineffectiveness of this defensive method, but just about any 4-3 Wood Elf v Skaven shootout will do that for me. These games generally hinge on individual dice rolls plus who gets hurt more. Looking through my own record, I was surprised by how few Skaven and elven teams I've played against!
About not being able to stop a team going through the middle - as an elven coach receiving, there's nothing more I love to see than wide open spaces to run into, without having to block players out of the way first (I always seem to roll pushbacks on LOS blocks, and more double-skulls than is good for me on a turn I still have to pick the ball up in); I'll run most players down one flank, but send a few down the other side also, forcing the defense to spread itself. I hate having to go straight through the middle - it means my players are within range of just about every opposition player, even slow players like Dwarfs or Zombies. I prefer to ignore the opposition LOS if that team is tougher than mine (and it usually is, such are the teams I play with).
I will stand by my defensive record, though - having always covered my flanks (when enough players were fit), I average 1.0 TDs conceded per match, having played mostly with the lighter-weight teams. I consider myself a defensive specialist - my offensive play is not nearly so good. |
_________________
Join The Cult of Tzeentch, mutate randomly! | Hug a newb! Join the Faculty of Academy Instructors! |
|
DoubleSkulls
Joined: Oct 05, 2003
|
| Posted:
Mar 22, 2005 - 00:02 |
|
I rarely use a bunched up in the middle defence as I find from that position its much harder to threaten a blitz on a not quite deep enough ball carrier. Also it means that just deep enough is an extra couple of squares further forward, making it easier for the ball carrier to reach the safety of the LOS on turn 2 of the drive. |
_________________
Ian 'Double Skulls' Williams
Eucalyptus Bowl |
|
LordSnotball
Joined: Nov 05, 2004
|
| Posted:
Apr 21, 2005 - 03:18 |
|
i learnt the beauty of open flanks against a necromantic team... the coach left the flanks open, and created a wall of players just ouside the flank... it looked quite simple to score until he pinned down my offence and used his werewolves to crowdpush my offence...
personally i leave it slightly open now, enabling lone players to get through, but not enough to make a cage... i must experiment more tho! open flanks could be useful though if u have a few players with pass block! |
_________________
-Snottie
The Congregation - Always Recruiting
[url=http://igolocal.net/badge.php?user_id=1949] [/url] |
|
Rijssiej
Joined: Jan 04, 2005
|
| Posted:
Apr 21, 2005 - 04:17 |
|
Advantages of leaving the flanks open:
More flexibility in responding to the opponents turn and set-up. (all the players can reach both sides)
You can protect key players from being blitzed (and fouled) by setting them in the center behind some linos. (I use this to protect my ST4, PO, MB, Tackle, Strip Ball, Sure Feet, AV6 Wardancer. Also usefull for AG5/6 Throwers, Dauntless + Horns Gutter Runners, one-turners, dirty players etc.)
Advantages of covering the flanks:
Opponent can't easily gain lots of ground.
You can take more advantage of a blitz kick off event.
At the moment i use the open flank set-up for my fast/agility teams and the covered flank set-up for my bashy teams (with 11 players available). |
|
|
Faulcon
Joined: Aug 02, 2003
|
| Posted:
Apr 21, 2005 - 05:58 |
|
My preference is for lizards... playing with them I nearly always leave the flanks wide open. Even when all 7 big lizards take the field I'm starting with 4 skinks and those guys are never going to stop your opponent getting through when he can pick his own target. Instead I normally put 5 big lizards on or close to the line and 2 stretching behind them 5-8 spaces from the los to blitz any ball carrier wanting to get through. The 4 skinks come up along with them (hopefully with sidestep and diving tackle) and between those 6 players most drives get slowed down substantially. That skink swarm has stopped a lot of promising offensive sets. |
|
|
collier1976
Joined: Mar 30, 2005
|
| Posted:
Apr 21, 2005 - 06:28 |
|
I probably play the strangest "normal" defense of anyone. I put three on the LOS, either bunched (against bashy) or spread (against speed). The rest I play back about 6-7 spaced from the LOS. The players in the backfield include blitzers, throwers, catchers, experienced linemen (especially guard/MB guys) and, maybe most surprising, my Big Guys. Put the Big Guy in the middle about 5-6 spaces from the LOS, blitzers in an arc behind him, one blitzer in each sideline along with one linemen with them.
I play this against both kinds of teams for one reason.. I get to see what they are going to do without committing any of my guys to being in tacklezones or being blocked/guarded. I can see and understand the offense's plan and then react. I can take out any catchers or blockers essential to the plan and then force them to react and change their plan. It also keeps claw/rsc/mb blitzers from hitting anyone but cheap linemen.
What this doesn't work against is Skaven, especially if they have a player that can score in one turn. That requires a totally different strategy that I haven't quite figured out yet. 
One of the reasons we play (and spectate) is to learn strategy in how to beat certain opponents. Everyone either has a good basic strategy or through some very painful games, they will learn what works for them and for their teams.
Addendum: The above strategy is most effective with human teams with four blitzers that have Guard, Tackle, and Mighty Blow and a couple linemen with Block, Guard, and Tackle. Guard could quite possibly be the most important skill (other than Block and Dodge) in the game. If any newbs are reading this, game plans and strategies often get reworked and screwed up because of a few guys with Guard. |
|
|
poodle-man
Joined: Aug 02, 2003
|
| Posted:
Apr 24, 2005 - 00:52 |
|
I recently played a game with my Lizards vs a skaven team who tried for the "leave the flank open" style of defense. It absolutly did not work and i cant see it being all that effective against most other teams.
You are automatically 1 turn behind on defense anyway, so why compound that problem by leaving your opp so much in the way of freedom?
Against any team with mv 6, hardly speed demons, your opp could have 6 players in scoring range unoposed. And if your playing against a fast team, elves, skaven and such, they can set up a nearly impenetrable screen of blockers for a few recievers (and maybe a blitzer to clear a hole for em). So yes, you would be able to swarm over whichever side the opponent goes down but they should still score in two turns against you, and by passing into a cage, minimising your chance of getting a turn over.
Conversly if your playing someone who normally cages up the field you have given em space and a few free squares to make their cage in.
so other than confusing a newish coach i cant really see how leaving your flanks open is such a good idea. Does anyone have a replay where it comes off? wouldnt mind having a look. |
_________________
The Tr th. |
|
Laviak
Joined: Jul 19, 2004
|
| Posted:
Apr 24, 2005 - 07:03 |
|
The only time I've really seen it work well is when the offence try to bring the ball a long way forward in the first turn. Particularly if they form a loose cage around the carrier.
The defence can then put enough players in front of the ball carrier to stop him going straight for the TD, and can usually breac a hole in the cage, and get a couple of players zoning the ball carrier. Not sure if i have any good replays to demonstrate though...
I think it is probably more effective when both teams are down on players, rather than when there are stil the full 11 players on the field. |
|
|
Eddy
Joined: Aug 04, 2004
|
| Posted:
Apr 26, 2005 - 02:32 |
|
| Colin wrote: | | I will stand by my defensive record, though - having always covered my flanks (when enough players were fit), I average 1.0 TDs conceded per match, having played mostly with the lighter-weight teams. I consider myself a defensive specialist - my offensive play is not nearly so good. |
well, i average 1,1 conceded TDs here (having played 4v4 which messes up the stats). i'm not trying to play "who's the biggest" here, i'm only pointing out that, on this basis, my defense is at least as efficient =)
| poodle-man wrote: | | so other than confusing a newish coach i cant really see how leaving your flanks open is such a good idea. Does anyone have a replay where it comes off? wouldnt mind having a look. |
well, as i said, both on FUMBBL and on the other league i play in, i average 1,1 conceded TD per game. using the "flanks open" or the "only 1 guy on each flank" (as in: the opponent only needs 1 successful blitz to get through one flank) defense. |
_________________
'The generation of random numbers is too important to be left to chance.'
Robert R. Coveyou |
|
|
|
| |
anyone know how to c...
Search
