| Poll |
| Should Wights have access to strength skills? |
| Yes most definitly!! |
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53% |
[ 62 ] |
| No, no way!! |
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35% |
[ 41 ] |
| Erm, dont really care. |
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10% |
[ 12 ] |
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| Total Votes : 115 |
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Covertfun
Joined: Aug 02, 2003
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 Posted:
May 13, 2005 - 05:05 |
 
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Off Topic, and not meaning to be nasty, but perhaps a thread discussing how best to skill up wights and what role they play would be less ambitious than a straight-off chat about changing the rules? Certainly it seems likely that such a discussion would lead to popular consensus that they need ST skills.
I play an Undead team in the best league in the known universe - the swl ! I had to fire my cool wights (look in past players for typical Normal skill wights) and I'm building new ones match by match. I quite like wights how they are - if only because it encourages a different style - taking skills like Pass Block and Shadowing earlier than they would be taken with Guard, Mighty Blow on the table.
This part of the topic does need further exploration: what role are they meant to play (In Undead OR Necro)? Mummies are blockers/hardcore linos, the other part of the lino requirement also being filled by throwaway zombies (they exert Tackle Zones!? Awesome!!) Ghouls are versatile, but they are generally regarded as the ST3 catchers of the team, good ball handlers, and now and then a handy defensive unit. Wights certainly are the blitzers in Undead teams, by which logic ST access fits. In Necro, though, Wolves are the more exciting blitzer unit, Wights get stuck with the hybrid job of a ball-handling lino.
The key word is "hybrid" which is the kind of team Undead and Necro are - rather than one with clear-cut positional players. In fact, it becomes apparent, since only two Undead players have ST access (compared to five on a human team) that Undead need some new ideas about what you need on a BB pitch! 
On the other hand, yeah, I voted to give them ST access, unless a new position is created to give Undead potential on the AG-side of humans, rather than leaving them with the undeveloped ball skills they have.
Eddy raises an important point about the formula also - Wights are 90K, the same as a human blitzer, who has 1 more MA and ST access! That said: regen has to be worth something 
Now we all know - it has been discussed before in reference to Khemri - that player cost is decided partially on the team in which the position exists, but perhaps this would be something else to consider in balancing them?
btw: I DO love my DPs 
anyway, even further off-topic: perhaps this problem would be less contentious if wights cost 80K (like a Black Orc) instead of 90K (like an Orc Blitzer: +AV and ST skills!) then perhaps at least they would retain their feel without making Undead feel inadequate 
PS If Jervis really has decided that he has made his favourite teams Orcs and Dwarves as good as they can get and is refusing further rules reviews, maybe we must simply all pray for doubles!  |
Last edited by Covertfun on %b %13, %2005 - %05:%May; edited 1 time in total |
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MagmaBeast
Joined: Jul 24, 2004
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| Posted:
May 13, 2005 - 05:11 |
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Yes the Blizt-ra aslso as ST access. |
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Frankenstein
Joined: Jan 26, 2005
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| Posted:
May 13, 2005 - 12:39 |
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| Covertfun wrote: | | Eddy raises an important point about the formula also - Wights are 90K, the same as a human blitzer, who has 1 more MA and ST access! That said: regen has to be worth something |
That's completely irrelevant. The human roster is weaker than the undead roster.
Thus, there's no reason to widen the gap further.
| MagmaBeast wrote: | | Yes the Blizt-ra also as ST access. |
What kind of argument is this? With such an argumentation you should support AG 3 for Biltz-Ras as well. And 4 mummmies for undead. Actually, such an argumentation asks for identical rosters. It's the differences of the rosters and their unique character that make the game worthwhile.
BTW: Why has this been posted in "Ranked"? It's not as though this topic was specifically related with that division. |
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Azurus
Joined: Aug 02, 2003
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| Posted:
May 13, 2005 - 17:20 |
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Am I the only one who actually likes wights? They're one of my favourite player types, I was gutted when UD lost 2 because I had to start buying ghouls for my teams instead.
I think they're fine as they are, undead don't need ST skills on wights, nor do necros. I've always been quite happy sticking to G skills for them.
The 'but they are blitzers so should have S access' argument doesn't work either, since we'd then have to give S access to elven blitzers too, which as we all know would result in the end of the world.
Just accept the fact that these teams weaken at high TR, they still aren't bad even then. Yes, they can't compete in the bashy stakes any more, but why should they? They're more of a hybrid-style team anyway. |
_________________
*This is a public safety announcement. Azurus is a cynical, sarcastic idiot. Please ignore any and everything he may say. Thank you for your attention.* |
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Shepherd
Joined: Oct 28, 2004
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| Posted:
May 13, 2005 - 17:25 |
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| Azurus wrote: | | since we'd then have to give S access to elven blitzers too, which as we all know would result in the end of the world. |
Good...GOD! WE MUST ALL WORK TO ENSURE THIS NIGHTMARE SCENARIO NEVER COMES TO PASS!
(world explodes)
DAMMIT |
_________________
A super-hero that always fails his Bonehead roll: MAN-MAN, the averagest hero alive!
Buy Dead Eyes Open, starting July 2005 from Slave Labor Graphics! |
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Frankenstein
Joined: Jan 26, 2005
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| Posted:
May 13, 2005 - 17:27 |
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monboesen
Joined: Aug 02, 2003
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| Posted:
May 13, 2005 - 17:31 |
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And forget all this TR 200+ gaming. BB was never meant to be balanced or even much played at that level. |
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Smess
Joined: Feb 13, 2004
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| Posted:
May 13, 2005 - 17:57 |
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It would be cool, but undead would get to good then. They already are a kickass team, capable of defeating any other team.
It is trough though, that lack of guard on 200+ rating is their only weakness. As Schalburg said, the remedy for this is to get 2 DPs or so and foul his positionals.
Still I'd take guard on every double you get. |
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Macavity
Joined: Nov 23, 2004
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| Posted:
May 13, 2005 - 18:02 |
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Lack of guard.... BAH! By TR 200 you should have rolled a few doubles on the zombies. AV 8 regen players do stick around a bit, you know. |
_________________
When I became a man I put away childish things, including the fear of childishness and the desire to be very grown up. -C.S. Lewis |
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SnakeSanders
Joined: Aug 02, 2003
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| Posted:
May 13, 2005 - 18:16 |
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heh, i love wights, yet dont like ghouls so much 
i would be interested to see how a 4 wight (G) 2 ghoul team would play, id guess slightly good with the extra regen but would be cool, as i love wights! all hypothetical tho
lowering wight prices to 80 will make them even better at low TR, as you can spend the money elsewhere |
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thesquig
Joined: Apr 11, 2004
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| Posted:
May 13, 2005 - 18:38 |
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Being a keen Undead player I believe that wights are a little underpowered. They are decent blitzers at low TR but suck at high TR when they are forced to take skills such as passblock or shadowing which rarely work and a rarely used.
The game was designed with TR100 in mind. However I dont think it is too wild an idea for it to be implimented into div x. However I realise that div x also only uses "official" experimental rules.
I dont think many people would complain if mummys lost general skills and wights gained strength skills would they? |
_________________
Nuffle Sucks!!!
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Eddy
Joined: Aug 04, 2004
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| Posted:
May 13, 2005 - 18:41 |
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| Macavity wrote: | | Lack of guard.... BAH! By TR 200 you should have rolled a few doubles on the zombies. AV 8 regen players do stick around a bit, you know. |
given that zombies have a 5/36 to make a Guard-doubles (yeah, you wouldn't give guard instead of +ST now would you ?) and that a maxed out UD roster includes 8 Zombies, with 2 skills per zombie that is hardly more than 2 Guard. now, since we all know that skilling every player on a roster is hard, added to the fact that zombies will only skill through MVPs and the odd lucky CAS, i think it is rather safe to say that, no, you don't have a lot of Guard on an UD roster, even at higher TR. |
_________________
'The generation of random numbers is too important to be left to chance.'
Robert R. Coveyou |
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Jinxed
Joined: Jul 04, 2004
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| Posted:
May 13, 2005 - 18:53 |
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I play undead very much and I love them thank you.
And yes; at TR200 or more they start to suffer unless you 'get even' by fouling a lot. 
I would like S-access on the wights but I can also see them being increased in price (a bit) then.
Oh and about an earlier post about humans; I always felt their catchers should be ST3, lose dodge as an initial skill and be at 80k for starters. A bit pricey when compared to elf-catchers but humans have so many positionals that it is fairly balanced at a guess. (guess=no, never tested this! )
But unfortunately for human-coaches; I have NO influence on how JJ sees things. |
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Nuffle sucks |
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DreadClaw
Joined: Nov 17, 2003
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| Posted:
May 13, 2005 - 19:34 |
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Personally i am an undead player as well.. undead are nice but you gotta play em with conviction. having the BEST big guys and 2 of them! general skills, av9, regen, mightyblow AND access to rerolls.. and that for a LOUSY 110k. That's why they get wights without strength access. Besides, wights excell at ball recovering, with tackle, strip ball and shadowing all being one of the first skills you take on them. It means you give up a bit of bashability for better ballretrieval. sure, it may hurt a little getting outbashed at higher tr. but your players are all cheap (zombies for 30k, or free?!?!
Add a few dirty players, and you'll be able to exact revenge fine. Undead are tough, and require a slightly different approach to bashing. this doesn't mean they're outclassed.. it just means your playing a more ball oriented bashing fest. That being said, i like to compensate by giving all and any doubles to mightyblow (or frenzy on mummies) to give them more bashing power.. just pick off a few lone players, and they'll go away.. sure, guard will hurt you, but who's thinking about that? you have stripball tackle wights? on a 2d against on a block lineman with the ball they get the ball loose on 13 out of 36 tries without rerolls. with rerolls it's even easier! (not in the mood to calculate:P)
Take some risks, i mean it's just a wight. Ghouls are awesome assisting forces, with ma7 and dodge they tend to be able to get around fairly okay, and just 1 skill for blodge... so what if they die? werewolves are so much more expensive and don't start with dodge!
Play undead like a madman, like a true heinrich kemmler. Do you think A true necromancer CARES for his minions? They're mindless drones... they follow his every whim... so who gives a hoot if they die? |
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Death be not proud. Though Some have called thee Mighty and Dreadful Thou art not so. |
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DreadClaw
Joined: Nov 17, 2003
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| Posted:
May 13, 2005 - 21:12 |
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I really would like an opinion on my idea of undead so being the evil genius i am, i'm bumping this baby up! |
_________________
Death be not proud. Though Some have called thee Mighty and Dreadful Thou art not so. |
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