Drud
Joined: Jan 27, 2005
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 Posted:
May 10, 2005 - 12:31 |
 
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Of course it works perfectly if everyone just plays faster, but then a few teams will (can) hold back the rest of the tournament (and I dont blame them, they could have many good reasons), since they may have 4 weeks to play their last game, because they were ahead of schedule up untill then. This is why I think redline- and deadline-dates should be set every time a round is finished. People could still start playing a round before it's dates were set though.
So first round starts on the 1st, the deadline is at the 15th (14 days later), but every game is finished at the 11th. So the new deadline for round 2 (which some teams have already played) is 14 days after the 11th, the 25th. If round 2 is over before the 25th, a deadline is sat for round 3. If it doesn't end before the 25th, the next deadline will be the 39th (yeah, I know.. the 8th-9th or so in the next month), and matches not played will be forfeited, unless both coaches have messaged Tyrant (or Karhumies?), and explained. A good excuse can always yield a few more days to play the game in my oppinion.
I've been wondering about that last TR-drop question myself. My next, 5th and final, match is the first match (except my very first match) where I can field 11 players. All other games I've started with 10, or even 9 players. Right now, I'm 7 TR-points from the 125-limit. I'll probably exceed that limit after my last game, with only a very few points. So, if I'm not told not to, I'll most likely trim down my team rating to 125, so I can participate. Hopefully, I'll last more than one game  |
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sk8bcn
Joined: Apr 13, 2004
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| Posted:
May 10, 2005 - 13:21 |
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About:
1-My coach name: it's just Sebastien Krawer wearing number 8 from Basket Club Naborien. I was upset trying to find a name...usually always taken. This one is really never taken except by myself when I forgot my code. So I use it almost everywhere I can. Seb only sounds find in french so whatever it is outspoken hehe.
2-Vince assumpution about being alone: IMO you are wrong. I run a 70 players group and believe me, how many can't play once a week. I can (already ended the tournament here) BUT also what happens when you are in hollyday? ....
the answer come as point 3
3-pushing red and deadline forward: suppose you are offline from july 1st to 21st. If you have done quickly you can manage to avoid forfeits. Every other player know that deadline is deadline and things will go forward. Pushing things forward in term of deadline means, for some equitability that you wait on the guy. Actually, he worked on playing quick before hollidays and ended up forfeited. That's not right. So you wait....And if his opponent goes in holliday one week before he is back, the group waits once again. Established deadlines means equal rules for everyone and nobody can breach them. That's my point of view (in my tourny I forfeited myself once)
4-Why redline: redline is here IMO to separate guys that care to those who don't. It's for the organisator: deadline approches is breach you give a forfeit: then starts the whines: "he was guilty not me....I should have gotten the points and so on". As organisator you can't take it back because if you do the other whine. With a redline a pm is send 4 days ahead and the organisator CAN handle the problem ahead. Anyway, you usually end with only one guy pming you so know who earns the win and it's REGULAR because he breached redline rule. |
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Tyrant
Joined: Oct 01, 2004
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| Posted:
May 10, 2005 - 20:29 |
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Hi ppl...Great post btw. Karhumies!
As you all probably have guessed there will be some structure changes after the first tourney has ended. It turns out my first stab at this league structure thing was a wee bit ambitios .
I would like it very much if ppl would continue to throw balls in the air and keep the discussion going, so that all the things this league lacks can be discussed and we can try to better it.
As for the trimming of TR for a tourney: AS of now this is not a problem and no, it is not frowned upon. But if it turns out later that people trimming their teams is distorting the whole TR system, a rule might be put in. But as of now it's aok change niggled players exc.
(that being said, the TR limit for each tournament is just estimated at the moment. It may be tweaked during the season, so i'd advise people not to trim the TR until just before the tourney starts. |
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Karhumies
Joined: Oct 17, 2004
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| Posted:
May 10, 2005 - 20:43 |
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Re-Collection of the redline/deadline suggestions so far:
Current system= 10 days redline, 14 days deadline
Suggestion A ("status quo")= Keep it as it is, even though it will take much longer
Suggestion B (initial idea by Karhumies, Has been voted against and will not happen!)= reduce the deadline to 7 days
Suggestion C (secondary idea by Karhumies, has got some support)= reduce the redline to 7 days, keep the deadline at 14 days
Suggestion D (compromising idea by AlcingRagaholic, has got some support)= reduce the deadline to 10 days
Suggestion E (by Drud, has got some support)= Let each coach join with up to 2 teams, and hold several tournaments simultaneously. 1 Coach can then participate in 2 tournaments. His 2 teams will not be permitted to join the same tournament at the same time.
Suggestion F has been edited (by sk8bcn, no support yet)= one season equals one year. Different tournies during different seasons. Requires increasing the amount of coaches/teams rapidly. |
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Last edited by Karhumies on %b %11, %2005 - %16:%May; edited 1 time in total |
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Karhumies
Joined: Oct 17, 2004
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| Posted:
May 10, 2005 - 21:05 |
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my comments on Suggestion E:
If we are going to hold two tournaments at the same time, both tournaments should have roughly the same amount of games. Otherwise teams in one of the tourneys will hog much more spps and gold than teams in the other tourney.
This leads to a huge problem:
If we have two identical tournaments running at the same time, with Tourney A having deadline=7 days and Tourney B deadline = 14 days, the other tournament will last twice as long.
Possible ways of solving: (some options can be combined with each other)
I) Leave it as it is. Let the group A players have their moment of speedball and come to rest.
II) Let group A have much more time during the playoff rounds than in the beginning rounds and hope Tourney B will eventually catch up.
III) Arrange two Tournies using different formats, not just different TR and redline/deadline
-Leads to- What kind of tournies should they be? Maybe Swiss vs Round Robin?
IV) Arrange two tournies using the same format but make them have different themes (e.g. Elfbowl vs Orcbowl thingy planned for season one)
V) My favorite format. I planned this for some time! Arrange the tournies by TR. Let teams in the lower TR tourney play 1-2 games more to get more spps and money=catch up with the more experienced teams. However, teams in the low TR tourney will be given much less Grudge League points per game because
a)they play more games
b)playing in high TR division should be encouraged by giving extra GL points
c)reducing TR to get to play versus the low tr teams instead of high tr teams should not be encouraged.
This naturally leads to the lower TR tourney having less time per game but if any coach feels he is not capable of playing fast rounds, no one will object if he/she decides to take on the high TR teams. If it was the other way around (=high TR has less time per game), this kind of arrangement would not be possible. |
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Last edited by Karhumies on %b %11, %2005 - %16:%May; edited 2 times in total |
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Karhumies
Joined: Oct 17, 2004
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May 11, 2005 - 08:55 |
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I´ve got a nice sample solution in my mind for using suggestion E in practise.
I will try to allocate some time for writing it down to this thread after I have finished school today. |
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sk8bcn
Joined: Apr 13, 2004
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| Posted:
May 11, 2005 - 12:53 |
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Arf, Khar you got me wrong. It was fictionnal time I spoke about. number og games is NOT important in this setting actually, since there is TR caps for each tourney:
E.G.
Phase 1: Rookie tourney TR 100 or less round robin OR The great opening KO cup no TR caps.
Phase 2 (named for fluff summer season): Orc tourney round robin pts for cas TR cap 150+ OR Elven tourney TR cap 150+ pts for TD OR the great fumbbl mess TR 150- Swiss style
Phase 3: Big Grudge rush league TR 125-150 1 game per week OR Golden Recovery No TR cap open round robin, as many game as you want OR The Big contest KO style 15 days a game
Phase 4: Big Grudge tournament TR 200+ OR Med Grudge tournament 150+ or low grudge 100+
Then
Starts again with adjustement, add or retire tourneys.
If there is lots of coaches and team per coaches, you can allow yourself to be lower in TR. You will find anyway a group that suits to your team. |
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Karhumies
Joined: Oct 17, 2004
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| Posted:
May 11, 2005 - 15:59 |
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I have edited the description of your suggestion, sk8bcn. |
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Karhumies
Joined: Oct 17, 2004
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| Posted:
May 11, 2005 - 16:13 |
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My take on suggestion E: How to hold two tournaments simultaneously?
In most cases:
Tourney A (referred to as Fast or High Speed format)
-low TR
-no redline
-10 days deadline
-in case of Tourney A being low TR tourney,
-more games per tournament than in Tourney B
-less Grudge League points per match than in Tourney B
Tourney B (referred to as Slow or Slow speed format)
-high TR
-redline = 7 days
-deadline = 14 days
-less games per tournament than in Tourney B
-more Grudge League points per match than in Tourney B
-preferably, two rounds out of 6 for each tournament in Sample Season (posted below) will be settled using the redline rule, meaning they end in 7 days. This usually means semis and finals=the last two rounds. However, if only one or two games are not played at the exact time when the redline rule expires, it is possible to begin the next round immediately if the coaches who have not yet played their matches for that round givve their permission. Those few coaches will then have 7 days to play their previous game (previous round's deadline rule) and to pm their next opponent (current round's redline rule). Then they have another 7 days to play the next match (current round's deadline rule).
On some occasions:
Tourney A and Tourney B will have equal redline/deadlines = 7days red/14 days dead, with special themes for each tourney. In this case the point allocation might be even in both tournaments and there might or might not be a TR cap.
Example: holding two similar KO tournaments at a time.
These rare occasions will not be discussed further in this post.
Again, in most cases:
Tourney A length (matches)= 7 games (5 games + semi and final)
Tourney B length (matches)= 6 games (4 games + semi and final)
MAX. Tourney A length (days)= 7games*10days =70 days
MAX. Tourney B length (days)= 6games*14 days=84 days
Tourney B length, supposing there are two rounds in which we can move on after redline date (most likely the semis and final round) (days)= 84days-14days = 70 days
Slow (=redline 7 days/deadline 14 days) KO tourney of 32 teams= 5 rounds * 14 days = max. 70 days
Sample season:
5 tournaments * 70 days = 350 days + end of season fan factor game 14 days = 364 days = one year
Sample season structure:
1. Round Robin for second season teams (low speed)/ Round Robin first season teams (high speed)
2. Racial compatibility chart (any TR allowed=slow speed) / Racial compatibility chart (max TR= XXX, fast speed)
3. KO (Elfbowl, slow format) / KO (Orcbowl, slow format), using different themes
4. Swiss (low TR, high speed) / Swiss (high TR, slow speed)
5. Big, fat KO tourney for all of the teams in the league. Losers will have their own bracket so that second loss=out from tourney. (the format will be posted below)
6. End of season match for the two teams with the highest Fan Factor |
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Karhumies
Joined: Oct 17, 2004
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| Posted:
May 11, 2005 - 17:05 |
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Sample format for holding a big, fat KO tournament (64 teams are used in this example):
General information:
-There is a winners' bracket and a losers' bracket
-During Winners' Bracket rounds 1-4, the losers of those matches will drop to the Loser's bracket and get a second chance.
-It is impossible to return from losers' bracket to winners' bracket. If have lost a match, you are a loser. As all kids know, winners are winners and losers are losers.
-The highest place in the tourney that can be achieved by playing well in losers' bracket is the shared fifth place.
-To get into top 4, you must win your first 4 matches in a row.
-Two losses = you are out. Permanently. No exceptions.
Winners' bracket (to get into top 4, you have to stay in the winners' bracket all the way)
R1: 64 teams (all coaches). winners advance to Winners' Bracket Round 2. Losers drop to Losers' Bracket Round 2.
R2: 32 teams (winners of WB round 1). winners advance to WB R3. Losers drop to LB R3.
R3: 16 teams (winners of WB round 2). winners advance to WB R4. Losers drop to LB R4.
R4: 8 teams (winners of WB round 3). winners advance to WB R5=semis. Losers drop to LB R5.
-Losers from these first rounds will drop to the Loser's bracket and get another chance.
-The top four teams left will decide the big, fat Ko tourney champions. If a team has lost one of their matches during (WB round 1 - WB round 4), that team may not rank higher than the shared fifth place. Losers are not winners 
R5=Semis: 4 teams (WB R4 winners)
R6b=Bronze match: Losers of the semis. Places 3 and 4 are decided in this match.
R6a=Final: Winners of the semis. The winner of this match will be the only team which has won all of their matches in the tournament!
Losers' bracket (top rank that can be achieved by playing well in the losers' bracket = shared fifth place)
R1: 0 teams (no one has lost a game yet). Nothing happens.
R2: 32 teams (losers of WB round 1). winners advance to Losers' Bracket round 3. Losers drop out from the KO tournament (shared 49th place). One fourth of the teams are permanently out by now.
R3: 16 teams (winners of LB round 2) + 16 teams (losers of WB round 2) = 32 teams total. winners advance to LB R4. Losers drop out from the KO tournament (shared 33rd place). Half of the teams are permanently out by now.
R4: 16 teams (winners of LB round 3) + 8 teams (losers of WB round 3) = 24 teams total. winners advance to LB R5. Losers drop out from the KO tournament (shared 21st place).
R5: 12 teams (winners of LB round 4) + 4 teams (losers of WB round 4) = 16 teams total. winners advance to LB R6. Losers drop out from the KO tournament (shared 13th place).
-no more teams will join the losers' bracket. There are only 4 teams left in winners' bracket, whom will play the semis and finals between themselves.
R6= last round!: 8 teams (winners of LB round 5). winners are ranked 5th (they are in top 8. w00t!). Losers have the shared 9th place.
-The tournament is over
It is MUCH easier to present this format graphically than by using words. |
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Primetime
Joined: Mar 23, 2004
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| Posted:
May 12, 2005 - 21:08 |
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Things seem to be getting awful complicated here.
Why not keep things as they are at the moment, but give extra Grudge League points for all
teams finishing their games within a 7 day deadline. That way there is an added incentive to finish things quickly. |
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sk8bcn
Joined: Apr 13, 2004
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| Posted:
May 12, 2005 - 22:20 |
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good thing for KO tourney but what's the point in deadline problems? |
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ZevinzeNompardi
Joined: Oct 25, 2004
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| Posted:
May 13, 2005 - 13:23 |
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hello
DEADLINES
i do agree with the general idea of giving a tweak to the season format.
but i do not agree with the idea of instituzionalizing the difference between high speed tournaments for low TR and "low?" speed high TR ones
i have to point out that nobody can guarantee that the 7-14 tournaments will be longer than the "noredline" ones.
AND i do not like to complicate the "out of suspension of disbelief" part.
i have an agenda for my real life, i have dates and strict, changing deadlines. here i'd like not having to use an agenda, and to have one simple rule to remember, easy and simple for as many team or tournament i play and indipendent on the fact i have success or not with my teams (thus havig to seel players-lower my TR, to play in lower ranked less flexible tournaments).
NUMBER OF GAMES AND TR
the idea of having the lower ranked teams need of playing more games to get on par isn't completely correct.
it is a fact that with raising TR the marginal SR gain of each match tends to go down.
and in time, playing the same number of matches will permit a lower ranked team to level the difference.
if we want to max the (possible, not guaranteed) leveling to the teams we will have to max out the tournaments that guarantee a number of games:
that is, round robin (preferred by me, but that's just personal like) and swiss.
AND the league already has a system of guaranteeng more games to the lesser TR teams, in the different TR requirements of the tournaments.
TIME OF PLAY
i feared what i read about the different speed thing initially, but i like very much Khar's ability to plan about the number of days a season should do.
the point where i do not agree with him is this:
we have playoffs for the leagues! although that will be a fast and tense part, they will suck days.
they will be normally faster than regular tournament turns (less coaches, winning and "in the mood" ones, to say more) but they will take a time.
and i believe, too, that we can hope the later turns of every KO tournament to be quite faster than the earlier ones.
so i believe that the time count will have to be taken as not as strict and sure as it may seem, expecially with "changing deadlines" as in the proposal for "7d red-14d deadline". we have to accept that a season of game will have a variable duration in real time, and that's good, too!
GRUDGE BOWL
i am quite against the idea of a so big KO for the grudge bowl:
if it is the earth of the league it seems to me it should have a divisioned round robin prologue prior to a big playoff seeded by results.
even a 16 (or a 1000, but we have a 25, 35 maximum of coaches!) teams playoff could be fine, but with a previous divisional ranking scrimmage:
it appeals to me the idea that what you have done before is not important for the GrudgeBowl, just what you do here.
i also hope excluding the chance of earlyer "win or get excluded from the final" games between prime favourites.
to the other side i like the idea of letting the losers in a ko go on playing, maybe depending by the tournament fluff and proposal.
kislev and loren would be prime candidate for this, tribal implies phisical elimination of the losers and it's higher TR oriented, so i'd say no!
in GrudgeBowl i'd say no too, would be quite anticlimatic and would steal attention from the final: the idea of the teams progressively being bested by someone and having to keep their eyes on the finals is much more climatic than having (the chanche) to play 5th to 9th place finals.
that seems to me olympic and not foot-bloobowlist. let's use the NFL experience to build up climax, it works!
There will be only one to stand, at last!
all the others will end their tournament with a loss or (worse) out of the "real" playoffs of the season.
FLUFF IS IMPORTANT
i feel that in every tournement we will have to try to prioritize the IN GAME difference between the tournaments and not simply divide in tournament that gives more or less grudge league points for the matches.
by the way: for how many people is the grudge league points part important?
to me, my team-teams will always be very competitive-minded, but i'm not here to see that i'm the coach that scores more GL points!
and with multiple teams playing per coach, what will we do? will we invent a system that divides the points gained by the teams owned, ponderated per the games played that does not inequally favor the most active coaches?
PROPOSALS AT LAST!
the league as it is has 6 dates:
the DOBC RR
the Kislev Classic KO
the Loren-Tribal KOs
the World Edge Mountain Challenge Swiss
the Grudge Bowl
the Skavenblight Invitational KO.
promotional match.
each starting after the previous final match(es).
i'd like to make the Kislev type KOs start as soon as the regular season of the great tournament they follow ends: they are meant for letting the low ranked teams (that did not reach the playoff) recover games in front of the already higher SR playoffing ones.
this would let the non-playoffing ones play something while the playoff go on, and the playoffing ones not having to wait for the whole kislev ko to end before starting the next step. they'd have to wait for just one turn (8 playoffing teams in DOBC, let's say 16 teams in kislev).
this would help us keeping the downtimes between the leagues short.
starting Kislev Classic during DOBC playoff would have the side effect of remarking the difference between DOBC and GrudgeBowl in fluff:
DOBC interests those who plays it. GrudgeBowl stops the continent breath!
not for the existing season, but for the future:
why not moving the WEMMC in the DOBC time?
this would take us to a 5 "steps" season, everyone in the 70-84 days area of which khar speaks of.
maybe the RR and Swiss will take longer (playoffs!) and the KO shorter, but that's it.
the calendar proposal itself
1-STARTS THE SEASON: start of DOBC RR and WEMMC Swiss regular seasons
2-
3-
4-
5-
6-start of the DOBC and WEMMC playoffs (maybe WEMMC won't have playoff as it is swiss, just some more turn!) AND start of Kislev KO
7-
8-
9-after 3 turns of playoff DOBC ends. contemporary end of WEMMC last turn or playoff.
10-last turn of Kislev KO (or last two if we have 32 teams here, not such probable)
11-start of the Loren KO and tribal KO with 16-32 (believe 16) teams each.
12-
13-
14-end of 16 teams KOs
15-eventual end of 32 team one(s)
16-start of Grudgebowl! say 5 games of regular season.
17-
18-
19-
20-
21-start of Grudge Bowl playoffs which all the leagues spectates in religious silence. let's say 4 turns of 12-16 teams playoff.
22-
23-
24-GRUDGEBOWL!
25-begins Skavenblight KO; 8-16 teams for the first league, let's say 16 teams -4 turns.
26-
27-
28-Skavenblight final
29-Protagonist Prowl Promotional
-STARTS NEXT SEASON
29 turns to play a season.
at 2 weeks a game means 58 weeks, something more than a year.
at the pace proposed by khar (we gain 2 weeks every 6 turns with the "7red-14dead lines" system) it would mean less than 50 weeks.
more or less and reserving to tyrant the right to give pauses for holidays.
this plans excludes the 10 days no-deadlines option because i personally (as written above) do not like the complication of having 2 systems for deadline.
what do you think? |
Last edited by ZevinzeNompardi on %b %14, %2005 - %13:%May; edited 1 time in total |
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Drud
Joined: Jan 27, 2005
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| Posted:
May 13, 2005 - 17:51 |
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wow... Lots of good suggestions. I think I'll stop suggesting, commenting and adding stuff for now, since it's sounds so much better in my head than it does on paper (well.. screen, I guess.)
I like many of the suggestions. I hope a lot of the coaches in The Grudge League are reading them, even though very few have posted... |
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Karhumies
Joined: Oct 17, 2004
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| Posted:
May 13, 2005 - 19:12 |
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ZevinzeNompardi, it seems like most of your objections are about my "Sample Season" structure. It was really meant just as a sample, to give an approximate figure of how long will a single season take (in days). I did not even suggest implementing it to Grudge league. I put in some of the season one tournaments to illustarte what kind of things and different tournaments could be done in Grudge league, if the coaches like to have them. That is also the reason I did not name the tournaments; the whole "Sample Season" was meant to be...just a sample.
I concentrated more on trying to figure out the amount of different tournaments per season and the amount of total tournaments per season than creating fluff. That is mainly because I do not know anything about the WH world and I wish to leave all fluffy things for Tyrant, who seems to have played WH FB. Tyrant has also already created the tournaments for season one and made the fluff. I did not want to copy-paste his work here, as he is the one who has created the tournaments. Neither did I want to create my own fluff, as Tyrant's fluff already exists. As I previously stated, the Sample season is just a sample. Samples can be improved, altered, changed, renamed and stuff. Perhaps I should have named it a prototype season instead, to avoid misunderstandings. 
I will now re-read through your post and quote some things which are about something else than the "Sample season". |
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