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lord_real



Joined: Aug 02, 2003

Post   Posted: Aug 19, 2005 - 16:35 Reply with quote Back to top

I have written about this idea once before in another post. But I have thought about it some more know and are now ready to present the idea in a real post. So YES! You have probably seen the idea before. Wink

Many people whine about cherry pickers, agility teams not playing basher teams, basher teams not trying to win just to crush and the like.

I am not innocent in this. I never play khemri (because I think they are broken) and I try to avoid dwarfs (because I think that they are boring). But I have an idea to make everyone happier in ranked without changing the fundamental rules about blood bowl.
What if every player get bonus points in their coach ranking for each time they play a new race. So if you haven’t faced of against dwarfs with your amazons then you get a certain bonus to your coach ranking for just taking the game.
When you have faced of against each and every one of the teams this resets and you are eligible to get new bonus points.

The first exploit I see using these rules would that every newly created team gets bonuses for the first games regardless of what they face of against (so a cherry picker blinded by his coach ranking would just recreate the same pro-elf team one hundred times). But what if we thought about that and gave the points after a certain number of games had been played or something like that.

But the best thing I could think of would be if you get a one-shot bonus to your coach ranking for each team, when they have faced of at least once against every other race there is.

So when your High elfs have faced all other elfs and all other bashers (and semi-basher/agility teams) then you get a quite high one-time-boost to your Coach ranking.

I myself don’t care much about my coach ranking, but I have noticed that many people do. With these rules hopefully cherry pickers would start to play against a lot of different kind of teams (creating games for dwarfs, khemri, chaos and such) making this a happier place for everyone.

So I know that you all hate this idea. But give some positive criticism please. Smile
Cloggy



Joined: Sep 23, 2004

Post   Posted: Aug 19, 2005 - 16:44 Reply with quote Back to top

Not much wrong with the basic idea. It's the basic way E.L.F. works and that seems to be quite succesfull. It does have some practical drawbacks though.

Playing vs bashers it not so bad for a low TR elf team, when they lack tacklers and MB's. In fact, you will see that most coaches like to start off ANY team vs chaos Razz

I am not so sure that elf coaches avoid Uber bashers because it helps their CR. I play quite a lot vs elvish teams with my chaos dwarves and I have a very hard time actually beating them, so CR seems not so much the problem. The real problem is that not many coaches, including myself enjoy having to rebuild a team time and again. In fact some teams may never recover.

Playing a lot vs bashers with elvish teams IMO is a luxury only the good coaches can afford, for instance Mr_Launcher does it all the time, since you a really high ff to be able to afford the replacement players you need.

A coach who plays multiple games against bashers with skaven/woodie/pro-elf and has ff10 or lower is basically retiring his team.

OK, I'll get to the point: the basic idea of rewarding diversity is not bad at all. I just don't think it will solve the problems people keep complaining about.

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sk8bcn



Joined: Apr 13, 2004

Post   Posted: Aug 19, 2005 - 21:38 Reply with quote Back to top

Okay I am fully against the idea.

Why? easy: I want to be a top coach:
I create a team, cherrypick on everyrace (to minimize the risk) selecting at best a team that performs well against everyteam. I earn the bonus, retire the team, start again.

Great I belong to top coaches now!

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angelface



Joined: Mar 23, 2004

Post   Posted: Aug 19, 2005 - 21:51 Reply with quote Back to top

Cherrypicking cannot be filtered out since even the team rating system isn't fully objective. You want to honor playing vs races - but if a chaos team has 6 'claws', its tr is the same like if all the 6 claw players had 'two heads'. There is no system that can't be tricked.
origami



Joined: Oct 14, 2003

Post   Posted: Aug 19, 2005 - 22:31 Reply with quote Back to top

It's already been done. There have been coaches that start off a brand new Amazon team, play several games against newbie elves/chaos/etc, then retire them.

Rinse and repeat.

This system would make such behavior even more rewarding, unless the bonuses only kick in after quite a few games.

sk8bcn wrote:
Okay I am fully against the idea.

Why? easy: I want to be a top coach:
I create a team, cherrypick on everyrace (to minimize the risk) selecting at best a team that performs well against everyteam. I earn the bonus, retire the team, start again.

Great I belong to top coaches now!
Gran



Joined: Jul 07, 2005

Post   Posted: Aug 19, 2005 - 23:05 Reply with quote Back to top

If you really want to make people cherrypick less then you'd have to redo the system of how rank is calculated. If a win against a higher ranked player is worth more than a win against a lower ranked player then you would soon have much less cherrypicking because you would need such huge amounts of wins to climb as a cherrypicker. Now this would lead to much more "turbulence" in the top layers, but then again that might not be a bad thing since it should take some effort to stay a top coach. It might also lead to stronger layering of FUMBBL as fewer coaches would be prepared to play people with a lower rank than themselves. You might say this would be turning Ranked into more of a ladder-system, but it is the way to solve the problem you're talking about.

We would still have all the cherrypickers who cherrypick only because they what to feel superior to their opponents, but you'll never be rid of those anyway.

Comments. Am I off the mark?

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sk8bcn



Joined: Apr 13, 2004

Post   Posted: Aug 20, 2005 - 02:59 Reply with quote Back to top

actually, it's already done somehow. With K steed to *8 in R tournaments where you can't choose opponent, you have to take risks there to get high. A famous cherrypicker in top 30 managed to get from 174 to 177 in month, when Mezir reached 179 in a glimpse. To be a the very top players, you need to make tournaments. It's more around 160 to 170 that you are likely to play an average coach cherrypicking. (EDIT: well if you are yourself a low ranked coach, else not)

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lord_real



Joined: Aug 02, 2003

Post   Posted: Aug 20, 2005 - 11:04 Reply with quote Back to top

Quote:

It's already been done. There have been coaches that start off a brand new Amazon team, play several games against newbie elves/chaos/etc, then retire them.

Rinse and repeat.

This system would make such behavior even more rewarding, unless the bonuses only kick in after quite a few games.


Well.. Since there is several races out there and you have to play against each and everyone of them you still have to play quite many games before the bonus apply (if the bonus comes after you played against ALL the other teams). So you have to play 21 games before the bonus. So its not THAT easy to be top coach. Wink

Or am I wrong? Razz
vanGorn



Joined: Feb 24, 2004

Post   Posted: Aug 20, 2005 - 11:06 Reply with quote Back to top

The Coach Rating calculation get extremly inaccurate an inequitable with uneven matchups. The more uneven, the less accurate and equitable.
Since cherrypickers create uneven matchups they profit from that.
So the best way is to completely ignore the coach rating.
To find a reliable measure for coaching skill, the teams would have to be picked randomly for both coaches, or the match has to be played twice, the 2nd match with swapped teams.
But that would thin the essence of bloodbowl, so I expect it never to happen.

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Jinxed



Joined: Jul 04, 2004

Post   Posted: Aug 20, 2005 - 11:25 Reply with quote Back to top

Quote:

A famous cherry picker in top 30

Heh. I wonder what you must feel as a cherry-picker. All the efforts you go to get to a high coach rating to stroke your ego. Then only to find out that the community thinks you are a cherry picker and lack skill because otherwise you'd not have to pick those cherries.

Ego crushed? Very Happy

Back to picking on n00bs again?

To boost battered ego again?

Only to find out even more people think (found out) that you stink?

Laughing

A vicious circle if there ever was one.

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Mezir



Joined: Aug 02, 2003

Post   Posted: Aug 20, 2005 - 11:31 Reply with quote Back to top

It'd just mean you need to play lots and lots of games to get a high ranking, rather than needing to WIN a lot of them (though you'd still need to do that). It'd give an unfair edge to people who play a lot.

Remember how the ELO Rating System works, you're supposed to start to wobble around a certain ranking after a while - that being your actual coach rank compared to everybody else, given that your skill level remains unchanged. This kind of thing would unblance that system.

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lord_real



Joined: Aug 02, 2003

Post   Posted: Aug 20, 2005 - 11:46 Reply with quote Back to top

Quote:



It'd just mean you need to play lots and lots of games to get a high ranking, rather than needing to WIN a lot of them (though you'd still need to do that). It'd give an unfair edge to people who play a lot.



Sure. You get a get a bonus to your coach rating playing a lot of games with the same team. But if you loose those games then you still dont get much tr (the one-shot bonus has to reflect this somehow). This bonus should just give a edge to those cherry-pickers that are good enough to actually play against all sorts of teams. So a person that looses everything still gets a bad coach rating but gets a small bonus for his sportsmanship of playing against all kinds of teams and to have his team survive at least 21 games.

Some people seem to be concerned about people making the same team and playing the same games over and over again (as people actually do right now with Welfs and amazon). But if this is really a problem using these rules you could also include that a coach only get a 21-game bonus for each race once. So for example you play amazon and get your 21-game bonus. Then if you want another 21 bonus you have to make another team with another race. Yes there are quite a lot of elven teams to accomidate the elven coach, but the increase in games for dwarfs, chaos, norse and khemri makes up for that I think.

Comments, ideas, critisism?
Mezir



Joined: Aug 02, 2003

Post   Posted: Aug 20, 2005 - 11:49 Reply with quote Back to top

Still the same deal. You add something to the ELO system that shouldn't be there, and you give people who play lots of games an edge over those who don't.

By the by, Christer has stated numerous times (to me, at least) that the CR system is not going to be changing from its current incarnation.

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sk8bcn



Joined: Apr 13, 2004

Post   Posted: Aug 20, 2005 - 12:02 Reply with quote Back to top

Jinxed wrote:
Quote:

A famous cherry picker in top 30

Heh. I wonder what you must feel as a cherry-picker. All the efforts you go to get to a high coach rating to stroke your ego. Then only to find out that the community thinks you are a cherry picker and lack skill because otherwise you'd not have to pick those cherries.

Ego crushed? Very Happy

Back to picking on n00bs again?

To boost battered ego again?

Only to find out even more people think (found out) that you stink?

Laughing

A vicious circle if there ever was one.


I guess that kind of guy doesn't care what other thinks of him. He has one goal and everything is good to achieve it.

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Jinxed



Joined: Jul 04, 2004

Post   Posted: Aug 21, 2005 - 15:32 Reply with quote Back to top

I doubt that. Why pursue a high CR then? To impress his mother? Wink

I think those who go great lengths to boost their CR DO care what others think...

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