| Poll |
| Should there be more vampire rosters? |
| Yes |
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54% |
[ 17 ] |
| No |
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45% |
[ 14 ] |
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| Total Votes : 31 |
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David
Joined: Aug 02, 2003
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 Posted:
Feb 15, 2003 - 15:28 |
 
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I think the majority of people consider the current vampire team to be rubbish - at low TR's, they're easily beaten; and at high TR's, they potentially have 7 strength/agility 4 players with block and dodge.
Also, with OFAB it's very hard to build complementing skills across the 6 vampires, since they very rarely all play together.
A few months ago, I came across some alternative vampire races the MBBL were testing:
http://www.blood-bowl.net/GWTeams/Vampire.html
While I liked the idea behind some of the races, I have a long-standing view that there should be no strength AND agility 4 players. Nor should strength 4 players have access to agility skills. Not only are such players very hard to take down, but it promotes poor tactics and gameplay.
So I made some modifications to the MBBL rosters:
http://www.davidmorrison.co.uk/vampirerosters.html
I'd be interested to hear people's thoughts on the different races. For example, if you are thinking of starting a Chaos team, would you prefer to use Blood Dragon vampires instead?
And if these rosters were available in DivX, would you play them? I'm sure if there was enough interest, Christer would consider adding them.
-David- |
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jazzer
Joined: Aug 02, 2003
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| Posted:
Feb 15, 2003 - 15:35 |
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You have to remember vampires are stronger and faster than humans so 4/4 is quite apropriate for them, but prehaps reduce there numbers to 3 or 4 not 6 |
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David
Joined: Aug 02, 2003
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| Posted:
Feb 18, 2003 - 22:48 |
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Jazzer,
Unfortunately, having strength/agility of 4 breaks team creation rules.
Break Tackle is the next best thing, since it allows them to dodge on 2+, but not do 'elf things' with the ball.
-David- |
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ShadowTroll
Joined: Aug 02, 2003
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| Posted:
Feb 18, 2003 - 23:42 |
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I like the rosters you've done except for one thing: Zombies on the Lahmian team... According to all stories of the warhammer world the Lahmians are skeletonusers. And it wouldn't make much of a difference. |
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David
Joined: Aug 02, 2003
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| Posted:
Feb 19, 2003 - 00:58 |
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Shadowtroll,
That sounds good to me.
BTW, when I play tested the Lahmians, I have to say it was the most exciting team I've ever played with!
They would certainly be my pick from the different varieties.
-David- |
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AsperonThorn
Joined: Aug 02, 2003
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| Posted:
Feb 19, 2003 - 02:18 |
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I guess I will be the first to post a dissenting opinion.
I refuse to beleive that the Vampire Roster, in its current state, is not a viable team. I have only played two games with it, and have to say that despite an uneven score in the second game, I was by no means blown out.
The Vampires themselves don't need tweaking. OFAB more than compensates for thier massive skill access, and thier 4/4 stats. The other weakening aspects of the Vampires are thier MV 6, so despite being able to readily dodge away they really can't go far, and their Low AV of 8, makes it difficult to keep them on the pitch, even when they haven't gone OFAB. Sure, they can have potentially 7 great players on a single drive, but they are just as likely to have only 1 great player on a single drive, and trust me, having just one Vampire on the pitch, covered by thralls, won't get you far at all.
The access to G/STR/AG skill trees is, by no means, a MAJOR advantage for them, as you can only pick so many skills for each vampire. By the time you have filled out the roster with the 7 vampires that you are allowed, most teams have rolled enough doubles to compensate for skill choices that they do not have access to, and now you have to get skills on yours. And if you neglect your Thralls, you are going to have some pretty terrible games at times.
The current roster can be frustrating, at times, but is not "rubbish."
AsperonThorn |
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Shorty
Joined: Aug 02, 2003
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| Posted:
Feb 19, 2003 - 02:56 |
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I'm going to agree with AsperonThorn and disagree with David. I feel the Vampire roster in its current state is quite balanced. They have 7 possible power players and 9 "fillers". The combination of the Thralls and OFAB makes a potentially devestating team, very unpredictable. The way I see it, OFAB is somewhere between Really Stupid and Take Root with one major exception; Vampires aren't big guys. A seriously negative trait on 90% of the team makes for a decent wildcard. Making the thralls a little more competitive might be a good solution for bringing up the team's mean strength(i.e. average ability) and seems like the best possible way to strengthen them up a bit, but I think that would make them overpowered. I just don't see a problem with the level of raw talent on the team. I think it's balanced well by the unpredictability of the only decent players on the roster.
C. J. |
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ShadowTroll
Joined: Aug 02, 2003
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| Posted:
Feb 19, 2003 - 09:34 |
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I never said the current vampires were weak... I've beaten them twice but that was probably a matter of the coach playing them...
If you rely entirely on your vamps for hitting and scoring then you will get burnt by OFAB. |
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David
Joined: Aug 02, 2003
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| Posted:
Feb 19, 2003 - 13:15 |
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I consider the current roster to be rubbish because it is unpredictable - potentially awesome, but with potential for disaster too.
I still maintain that a developed vampire team, with 7 strength 4 (or higher) vamps, with block & dodge, would be a nightmare to play against - with or without OFAB.
However, no vampire team (in the current or old FUMBBL league) has developed to this extent. Why is this? Could it be because people abandon them because they take too long to develop?
I should also point out that I have yet to play against a vampire team which has used Hypnotic Gaze properly - it is one of the most awesome skills in the game. And most treat the vampire lord as an ogre, standing on the LoS for 16 turns. It's a small wonder that the vampire teams haven't developed. A developed vampire team, in the hands of an experienced coach, should not lose.
It's a constant disappointment to me that the opportunity to produce a unique and exciting team has been wasted. It's even more disappointing that so few others recognise the lost potential.
-David- |
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AsperonThorn
Joined: Aug 02, 2003
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| Posted:
Feb 19, 2003 - 18:22 |
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| David wrote: |
no vampire team (in the current or old FUMBBL league) has developed to this extent.
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and
| David wrote: |
I should also point out that I have yet to play against a vampire team which has used Hypnotic Gaze properly
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Changing the roster does not solve this problem, instead it actually contributes to it. People learn by using a team that exists long enough to develop strategies and tactics, not by tweaking the roster at the first sign of adversity. The reason to play this team is the potential power that can be fielded, but that is balanced by the potential that you will field garbage. Without that, there is no reason to play this team, there are faster agile teams, and stronger strength teams to play, but if you change it you are just making the vampires the same as some other team. Either elves with Regen, or renaming Golems as Vampires.
Twice I have used Hypnotic gaze "properly" in which I used it to free up tackle zones on players when my blitz had to be used elsewhere. Once for a score, and once for a pass to score.
As for treating the Vampire lord as an Ogre, I will agree that the Vampire lord can be used for anything else, with the exception that he is the best player suited for that kind of work. Teams need muscle, especcially in the DivX division, and since there is no other reliable muscle on the team he is the obvious choice. When I play a game of football with my friends, I know really big guys that are fast enough to run out for pass receptions, but there are also small guys that are almost as good at running out for receptions, so I have to tell the bigger guys "I know you can do it, and I know that you can run out there better than these other guys, but I need you on the line, because there is nobody else suited for it." Its just logistics. If you have a guy that can do everything, you have him do what is most needed, not what he is absolutely best at.
Plus it never hurts to have an Ogre on the LOS that can become a clinch ball handler, when needed.
Asperon Thorn |
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David
Joined: Aug 02, 2003
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| Posted:
Feb 19, 2003 - 19:12 |
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I'm not actually concerned about modifying the existing roster - I couldn't care less about the 'official' vampires.
I'm more interested in exploring the variations within the vampire race, such as the Strigoi with RSC, and the strength 3 Lahmians. They pose different tests, for coach and opponent alike.
-David- |
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AsperonThorn
Joined: Aug 02, 2003
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| Posted:
Feb 19, 2003 - 19:44 |
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Well if that is all you want, you have already addressed that in another string. I see that you have added the link in that string to this one, but let me do the reverse.
http://fumbbl.com/modules.php?op=modload&name=PNphpBB2&file=viewtopic&t=76
Honestly, I tend to agree with Quillwood in the other string about it, and do not think we can possibly test every team that everyone would like to with honest results.
| David wrote: |
I don't think DivX is, or can be, a testing ground for the new rosters. Rather than playing against 'normal' teams, these new teams play against each other, and we learn little or nothing about their balance.
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Adding more teams will increase the likelihood of this scenario. As it stands now there are quite a few regular teams in DivX.
A better way of testing teams would perhaps be to allow DivX teams to play against Open teams wih no effect on coach ratings on either side. (maybe change the formula to K= (K[team 1] *K[team 2])/2)
Or allow for teams to be moved from the open league to the DivX league. I know I have been wary to start a new agility team in the DivX league, but would be more than willing to move a higher rated team over there in order to start a new open team, rather than retire one of my existing teams to make room.
Asperon Thorn |
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David
Joined: Aug 02, 2003
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| Posted:
Feb 19, 2003 - 21:22 |
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Asperon,
I couldn't agree more about needing more 'regular' teams in DivX.
I don't recall if you were around in the 'old' days of FUMBBL, but it was possible then to transfer a team from Open to DivX.
More importantly, as you suggest, we need cross-divisional matches. Now, how (or if) that would work under the new system...I have no idea.
After all, the two divisions were kept separate to prevent 'pollution' of the Open Div with non-LRB teams. Obviously, there's nothing to stop 'friendly' games being played, without reporting, but with no development prospects.
Perhaps DivX games should count towards ranking? Would that encourage more games with 'regular' teams? (or discourage?)
Or should teams be allowed to play across divisions, with match reporting, SPP's and no ranking, but remain in their league?
-David- |
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Perox
Joined: Aug 02, 2003
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| Posted:
Feb 21, 2003 - 10:59 |
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I am coach of Capital Sin, the highest rated vampire team in DIVX. Up until now I have played 12 matches. In my opinion vampires are fun to play as long as you don't care too much what the outcome of a match will be scorewise. 
Vampires are very costly, and I wonder if 110k, and moreover 11 TR is a good reflection of the strength of a player that will only be on the pitch 50% of the time, even if he has ST4 and AG4. This is what bugs me since people tend to play matches against teams that are more or less their own team's strength, and I don't think the strength of a vampire team is properly reflected this way.
Furthermore I don't agree with the replacement rule that says that when the Vampire Lord dies, he is replaced by one of the existing vampires who loses the OFAB but doesn't gain the extra strength. I don't see the point of it except spoiling the players fun. My Vampire Lord received a niggling injury and I have no way to replace him, even if I had the cash to do so..
I do not think vampires will be uberpowerful when the rating grows higher. Although they have access to strength, agility and general skills, the amount of skills is still the same as that of other players and the coach will have to make some tough decisions. Vampires need to buy block like everybody else and maybe a lot of coaches will choose to buy dodge after that, the team also needs guards, catching skills, sure hands, pass skills if they can get any, etc. etc... You can not rely on the thralls to do anything other than defending themselves, and standing in the opponents way (I had no luck with my thrall skill rolls I must add, no doubles no nothing).
I agree that the Hypnotic Gaze skill is very very nice to have and should be used on every occasion (I know I do). The great thing of using Hypnotic Gaze it that there is no turnover risk involved. You can use it effectively for instance to keep your thralls out of harms way. (Hey, let me walk past that troll/ogre/treeman/beast and gaze him, so my thralls can get away from him without dodging  )
All in all I think vampire teams are no match for other teams of equal strength, mainly because they rely on so few players who are in fact unreliable. This problem increases when your vampires gain enough spp's to suffer from aging or just suffer nigglings from getting hurt.
They are still fun to play, and a vampire team can perform amazing actions of skill, which contributes immensely to the glory and glamour of BloodBowl.
Verdict: Fun to play, but unpredictable and too weak for equal strength opponents.
Perox. |
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