Academy Division, How Sad !!!
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| Poll |
| Shoould Academy teams be allowed to move to unranked... |
| No |
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50% |
[ 97 ] |
| Yes |
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50% |
[ 97 ] |
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| Total Votes : 194 |
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MasterAl
Joined: Mar 30, 2006
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 Posted:
May 22, 2006 - 12:32 |
 
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| sk8bcn wrote: |
Are you concerned about CR? if no, are you concerned about Win percentage? If not, if that's (just learning to use a team) then why doesn't it belong to U?????
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Yeah, you're right. I could take it to U, but imagine if everyone who just wanted to try out a certain strategy or team took it to U instead of A. How many potential opponents do you think there'd be in Academy for newbies to play? It's hard enough to get a game in Academy as it is, what will it be like when you filter it by having such strict guidelines into who can and can't play in there?
It hardly sets a good example to new players when they join the site, excitedly create a team in Academy, then have to wait hours on end for a game there. Welcome to FUMBBL, kids! |
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Angie
Joined: Mar 06, 2004
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| Posted:
May 22, 2006 - 15:37 |
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| Mithrilpoint wrote: |
The community has now made something of the academy. Part time training ground for new coaches and part time noob hunting ground for the more experienced ones.
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Just as the old Academy was! only now the experienced coaches don't get credit with the win on their win/draw/loss record and the noob doesn't start of with negative w/d/l/ record after their first game. I wonder how many old academy "staff" boosted their w/d/l record by hammering noobs in the guise of helping... I for 1 could name quite a few.
| Mithrilpoint wrote: |
Yep, i think thats what the academy should be. A starting ground for new coaches with a selected number of experienced coache to show them the ropes. That would mean that of you´re not one of those or new to fumbbl then you have no business in the academy. This would of course take some selection but as there is allready plenty of selection regarding official fumbbl duties (Admin, Team approver, Tournament Facilitator, Security Officer, Editor of GLN and probably others i forgot), selecting 20-25 coaches (maybe more or less?) to take care of the academy chouldn´t be so hard. Plenty of good people out there that want to help the new people.
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Academy is open to all for a lot of reasons, as well as a starting place for new coaches, it is also a good place to play around with different races and weird skill choices at no detriment to your record. We do hope however that new coaches will be given advice and assistance across the board if / when needed. Its not hard to do. As to selecting a few experiernced coaches to play the Academy, that will not happen, the division is open to all, not restrictive to a certain number of people. Why aren't all the old Academy coaches helping out in the new Academy? Surely if they are that concerned about new coaches and want to assist them to get started here on Fumbbl, they would be there doing their bit... Maybe they just don't like the fact that they have now lost that win boost to their record. They will argue they feel as though they have been overlooked and ignored, well quite the opposite in fact. Academy Division was named Academy as a mark of respect for what the old academy started. It was made into an official division so as the new coaches didn't start of their Fumbbl days with a negative w/d/l record. Giving them a boost and allowing them to become familiar with the client and how everything works before moving onto the other divisions where your records are affected.
| Mithrilpoint wrote: |
Is there a Admin in charge of this division? Is there a vision for this division? I would like to hear from the admins whether the Academy works out as intended (then there is no need for change) or could be improved in some way. After all - the admins have the lead on this one as the Academy wasn´t spawned out of popular demand but as a decision that surprised, pleased and saddened some.
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To my knowledge there is no Admin in charge of Academy, we all step in when needed, whether that will change is really up to Christer. I would have no problem taking on Academy after all the base idea was mine, in the fact of no one gaining from the matches etc, Christer implemented it and introduced the TR cap etc. If people are saddened by the introduction of the Academy division maybe they should ask themselves why... It was done to assist new coaches further, after all isn't that what the old academy was supposed to be about?
Being able to transfer teams to Unranked was to allow those new to the game to be able to move on with a team they were happy with, already partially skilled to help in their first "counting" matches outside Academy if they so wished. Most however choose to play in Ranked after the Academy, that is down to personal choice.
mikafreak |
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Mithrilpoint
Joined: Mar 16, 2004
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| Posted:
May 22, 2006 - 16:30 |
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Thank you for your answer mikafreak. It is clear that no changes will be made (at least for the time being).
I see we have different views on how the old academy worked. I´ll stick to my view because i was actually there.
Fumbbl login were turned off while playing academy games (when we remembered it) unless the new coach wanted the spp and winnings for the match. Sometimes we used teams from different divisions if we had nothing that was within range - to avoid uploads.
Your slandering of the people that helped out is absurd and uncalled for. The fact that not all the coaches from the old academy leaps to the opportunity to help out in the new academy immediately gets turned into a speculation with slanderous purposes. Why? Not to mention your claim that you could name quite a few coaches that were there only to boost their record.
When the teachers of the old academy claim they have been overlooked and would have liked to at least know about the change then my guess it is exactly what they feel. No more and no less. A response saying "no we kept the name to honour you" is worth exactly nothing.
The decision was made without asking, without gathering input and without telling. Don´t blame us for not loving it right off the shelf. And don´t insinuate that we´re not there because we loved our little win% hack and are angry that it is taken away.
So all in all the academy (yeap, the new and only academy) works better than the old, no changes needed whatsoever. Good, lets get it going then.
M |
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Last edited by Mithrilpoint on %b %23, %2006 - %12:%May; edited 1 time in total |
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Nachtogen
Joined: Jan 03, 2004
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| Posted:
May 22, 2006 - 16:50 |
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well, as one of the old academy trainers I have to say a few things too. I agree with Mithrilpoint. The new academy is quite impersonal, and in my vision it's partially caused by the official status.
The reason I'm not in the new academy is mostly because I still feel something is taken away from me/us (without even consulting us once). And I don't mean an easy access to improving my win ratio. #Fumbbl_academy was a fun channel where I knew everyone, and chatted most of the time I wasn't playing. And, btw, what mith says is true, most of us played in U or we made sure the games didn't count (I mostly didn't do this, cause I like my number of games played, see further). I for one never played a game in ranked with a noob from academy. We were there for helping, and it was a small, fun group of trainers. I guess you'll never see me in the new academy, as I don't like the fact that games don't count, I don't mean the win ratio, or my numbver of TD's or anything, I just mean it doesn't count to my number of games, as I'm 15th with 1600+ games. Might be a stupid reason for most, but if people want training, they can still come to the old academy, as I'm still there with some people who just like the old academy... |
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MasterAl
Joined: Mar 30, 2006
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| Posted:
May 22, 2006 - 16:57 |
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| Nachtogen wrote: |
The reason I'm not in the new academy is mostly because I still feel something is taken away from me/us (without even consulting us once). And I don't mean an easy access to improving my win ratio. #Fumbbl_academy was a fun channel where I knew everyone, and chatted most of the time I wasn't playing. |
Well then why don't you come into the new Academy chat room and be friendly, chat in there and get to know the new crowd?
Seems the only reason people are complaining about Academy is due to bitterness that it's no longer some small, exclusive group. |
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Nachtogen
Joined: Jan 03, 2004
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| Posted:
May 22, 2006 - 17:01 |
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Cause there is no new crowd, the few times I was in there it was either empty, or there wasn't said a word in hours.
And if it comes over as I wrote that text only out of bitterness, well, that wasn't my intention, just wanted to write an honest reply. I didn't want to start a flame war all over again, didn't want to accuse people, just stated what I feel about the whole issue. And I do still see the disappearance of the old academy as a loss... |
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sk8bcn
Joined: Apr 13, 2004
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| Posted:
May 22, 2006 - 17:57 |
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| mikafreak wrote: | | I wonder how many old academy "staff" boosted their w/d/l record by hammering noobs in the guise of helping... I for 1 could name quite a few. |
I wonder too how much you could name...Even more, I propose you to pm me with that list.
| Quote: | | Academy is open to all for a lot of reasons, as well as a starting place for new coaches, it is also a good place to play around with different races and weird skill choices at no detriment to your record. We do hope however that new coaches will be given advice and assistance across the board if / when needed. Its not hard to do. |
If that was the case, it would be ok, I 'd say. Except testing DP tactic....
| Quote: | | As to selecting a few experiernced coaches to play the Academy, that will not happen, the division is open to all, not restrictive to a certain number of people. |
nice input in the debate. However, I don't consider that your opinion goes for Christer's opinion, thus I will continue to advocate (ps: was that teh right word?) here.
more coming up later.
| Quote: | | Why aren't all the old Academy coaches helping out in the new Academy? Surely if they are that concerned about new coaches and want to assist them to get started here on Fumbbl, they would be there doing their bit... |
see previous posts in my case...
| Quote: | | Maybe they just don't like the fact that they have now lost that win boost to their record. |
yeahhhhh you got me. That was I got 51% of victorys (yes I am not over that mark. I even used the academy to cherrypick like hell and then I and the Academy members were laughing loud about how evil we were. Mwahahahahahha
| Quote: | | They will argue they feel as though they have been overlooked and ignored, well quite the opposite in fact. Academy Division was named Academy as a mark of respect for what the old academy started. |
That's how it happend:
-Ladder and DivX will disappear but the academy will get some help
the academy staff: -Huh?
few days after:
New A division. New channel: Fumbblacademy (the old one Fumbbl_academy)
So far, I was quite happy with the introduction. I did move to the channel and, admin was as staff, no difference between teachers and noobs, no chat..... 'kay...
So far, it was even ok. New vamps done.
After that I wondered: but is that new academy played after all? I mean, is it hard to get games or not?
A quick look at teams and......
MANY MANY MANY names of experienced coaches. Guys I know their names...Never seen in the old academy....
(then I told myself, crap I won't have my new 20/0/0 record and left....that was probably my choice ^^)
| Quote: | | To my knowledge there is no Admin in charge of Academy, we all step in when needed, whether that will change is really up to Christer. I would have no problem taking on Academy after all the base idea was mine, |
I would. You clearly refuse to admit it's perfectible. Don't get me wrong, the basic input is really good. The problem is created by some fumbblers not acting according to the division purpose. This would recquier a few adjustements. But you clearly refuse that and just go on the old teachers throat (the bad guys playing for their win %)
| Quote: | | If people are saddened by the introduction of the Academy division maybe they should ask themselves why... It was done to assist new coaches further, after all isn't that what the old academy was supposed to be about? |
yes but it doesn't work that well yet, does it?
| Quote: | Being able to transfer teams to Unranked was to allow those new to the game to be able to move on with a team they were happy with, already partially skilled to help in their first "counting" matches outside Academy if they so wished. Most however choose to play in Ranked after the Academy, that is down to personal choice.
mikafreak |
what's the problem with meech 50-100 games maxima for removing to U.
I requote you:
"Being able to transfer teams to Unranked was to allow those new to the game to be able to move on" |
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BiggieB
Joined: Feb 19, 2005
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| Posted:
May 22, 2006 - 18:15 |
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I have a brilliant idea, the academy is in the #fumbbl_academy and the division is in #fumbblacademy, why not just post in the topic of #fumbblacademy, that there are people that gladly help out in the otherdivision.
I must say that as teacher in the academy the better part of my won games came from those 3 - 4 hour games vs new players, those games I only played to boost my ego till the size of kansas.
yer and the french smell and all danes are luckers! |
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DarkFrenzy
Joined: May 25, 2006
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| Posted:
May 30, 2006 - 03:24 |
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heya im new to the boards/FumBBl and i can kinda see arguments on both sides, my first game ever online was against a new guy in academy and we had a really great game wich ended in a draw. my second game was against a experianced Coach, but he told me he was experinced and actually helped me allot, showing me new things etc etc and explaining the finer points of the game...Now my complaints....ive had my orcy butt severaly beaten by 2 experianced coaches in my last 2 games...my last game was a loss of 4- 0
now the chap i played was nice enuff...but it doesnt do much for a new players confidence..now im going to stick at it as a ARD orc should cuz the community seems really nice, and i enjoy seeing my team develope but....maybe lack of new guys might be down to us new guys getting hammerd by a few too many experianced Coaches  |
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BadMrMojo
Joined: Aug 02, 2003
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| Posted:
May 30, 2006 - 22:57 |
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Apologies for bumping and beating a dead horse. I don't check in quite regularly enough and missed this last week.
Re: The topic:
Newbie hunting in DivA is not against the rules as they have been established. In typical fashion, Christer left the official rules of the division intentionally vague to accommodate the greatest number of users. I can respect that.
The intention, however, is very clearly outlined by the big guy himself in this thread. Newbie hunting to create idealized U teams for tourneys is very clearly not a part of that. The last line of Christer's post is a call to arms. If you find this sort of behavior inexcusable, then get in there and do something about it. Make it the sort of place that you think it should be.
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Re: Mika:
We're all entitled to our own opinions. Unfortunately, that means you get to hear mine, too.
I really believe you were way out of line in your previous post. I admittedly haven't been around much lately but I have been lurking occasionally and I have never witnessed or heard of the sort of behavior you're claiming as commonplace. When you say, "{noob hunting ground...} Just as the old Academy was!" you're explicitly stating that at least a majority, if not all, of the people involved were intentionally and deceitfully behaving poorly.
In fact, I'll be respectfully honest and say that I don't believe for a moment that you "could name quite a few" people who were artificially inflating their records under the guise of helping newbies. That's either a blatant lie or an unjustly broad accusation, based upon misconception and assumption. I, for the record, happen to believe the latter wholeheartedly.
It is my honest opinion that you owe the people you've falsely accused (mithrilpoint, nachtogen, WiNG, Sk8bcn, Biggieb, mymlaban, candlejack, rijssiej, fama, montagne, heinz and many others) a big fat apology.
Just my opinion.
If someone wishes to inform me that I'm incorrect and that there is a secretive group of dastardly fiends who are engaged in some private circle jerk over their w/l/d records and newbie-deceiving powers, then I'm all ears. Without any sort of evidence, I just don't believe it for a moment though.
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Re: NewAcademy vs. Old_Academy
This is, perhaps, a bit foolish. I can certainly see where people's egos have been rubbed the wrong way, but there's just no need for the adversarial antics.
Mika, you got this rolling, and with the name as a tribute. You expected thanks and got grumbling instead. Mith, Nacht, Biggie, and co. feel as though they're being told to butt out after all the time and effort they've put into it so far. It's understandable that there's some animosity.
#fumbbl_academy is exactly what it always was - a single channel in which a group of regulars expect to find and chat with the same regulars, with a basic premise of potentially helping any newbie who stumbles in. The creation of a new division is not a threat to that.
The new division does not need to compete with or overthrow the academy channel, either. It's not like we had a stranglehold on the newbies - in fact we always suffered from "too many chiefs, not enough indians" while I was there.
Petty squabbling over bruised egos doesn't help either side accomplish the shared goal.
I will say again, however, that I think it was a very wasteful decision not to use the excellent staff already on hand in the formation of the new division. Duplication of efforts, and all that. While the move by the admins is commendable, they really could have benefitted from at least speaking with the people who have already been doing exactly what you're hoping to capture for the past 2 years.
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Re: The intent.
FUMBBL needs a welcoming committee. DivA seems to have been established to fill that role but it currently appears to be falling short. In order to fix it, we need to figure out why and what we can do about it.
While I'm normally a big proponent of letting things settle before changing them, I'm jumping the gun in this case. I think there's a chance to do something really beneficial. Also, I don't think that any changes to the division structure are necessary... simply changes to the management and moderation of the channel to emphasize the intended goals of the division.
I'm specifically avoiding making suggestions in this post, as I want to get my feeble little brain wrapped around a few and lump them all together. I'm just trying to help direct people towards a more constructive sort of discussion on how to make divA a place to welcome new members to the league.
{ Edit: "Emphasize the emphasis"? Ok, I was rambling a bit by the end and came back to edit for clarity and grammar. } |
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Last edited by BadMrMojo on %b %31, %2006 - %00:%May; edited 1 time in total |
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SnakeSanders
Joined: Aug 02, 2003
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| Posted:
May 30, 2006 - 23:29 |
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mojo hits the nail on the head again! 
How can one man be so insightful? Is he pac's twin brother? Is BadMrMojo a front for a committee of ex mensa members who have insight greater then most?! All these questions... 
Seriously, I agree with what BMM has said, welsoming committee is a great idea, but I couldnt heko there as Im not always on IRC  |
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Thomcat
Joined: Jul 20, 2004
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| Posted:
May 30, 2006 - 23:31 |
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| DukeTyrion wrote: | | How about they can move team from [A] to [U] if they have no ranked teams? |
No that will just help the REAL U nerds to do the same trick and yes there are quite a few people that play only U and Stunty.
But do not think A is meant for safe team building for experienced coaches (to make it easier to make U turnement teams. This will just reduce other U coaches chances of getting build up games in Unranked. |
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Thomcat
Joined: Jul 20, 2004
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May 30, 2006 - 23:41 |
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| Da_Todfatha wrote: | Attention NOOBs!
Do not play in [R]anked Division until you are darn well and ready to do so. It is a cherry pickers paradise.
Instead when you feel you are ready to graduate from the Academy division, find an [U]nranked tournament and play there.
Groups like the Orca-Cola Cup Series are open to all TR levels, so you can get some matches in with teams at your level. We run a tournament for TR 100 teams every month, and after that you can move up to any of 5 other tournament levels.
Check it out!
http://fumbbl.com/FUMBBL.php?page=group&op=view&group=1347
Da_Todfatha |
Well this is REALLY up to themselves. Some do not like to get bashed around others love it. I started out when i was new - by accepting as many games as i could against people in the higher CR´s - just because i figured i would learn much more from them that from someone that knew around what i did. I did learn a lot more than i otherwise would. Yes it did cost me ALOT of cr and many smashed teams - but learning it the right way from the start is clearly better than learning it badly and having alot of bad ""traits" in your playbook.
But yes people should be aware that some people lives for trashing teams - but then again spotting those teams/ coaches is also an important lesson. |
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shagga
Joined: Mar 26, 2006
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| Posted:
May 31, 2006 - 02:13 |
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I started a Norse team in academy as a way of getting to grips with them and hopefully imparting some of the things I've learnt over my last 3 months here. I do not consider Academy about teaching the new players every great tactic in the book, its insulting sometimes to give advice on what they already know. In my games I play to win fair, I will cage and drive slow if needed and take that extra turn to score. My reason for this is I never experienced anybody play the cage like some of you guys do on here, its a awesome tactic that poeple need to learn how to defend and hopefully pickup on how to use it themselves. I do not consider using academy to rack up a 4-0 win acceptable and would never beat up an opponent that bad as games should be a fun experience in the beginnning. Players will soon learn the harsher side of Fumbbl without having their teams wrecked in the first 10 games.
My current record stands at 2-1-1 and I've really enjoyed the games I've played and learned a bit about Norse teams for future reference. My aim is purely to have fun and pass on the odd tips as I go along. For instance I had a game recently against some Wood elves where my new opponent decided it would be a good idea to foul one of my players in turn 6 of the second half with no tactical advantage. As per my teams bio I hadn't fouled throughout the game but I did on my next turn highlight the error in his pointless foul by setting up his Wardancer for a gang foul. While without a DP the damage wouldn't have been great I would hope he learned that needless fouling can lead to dire results on your teams stars. This sort of "mistake" by new coaches is what we should be imparting not giving away cheap scores and wins in my opinion.
The only complaint I have in Academy is the number of "Newbies" trying to cherry pick me with their +20ts teams lol. |
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ex-convict
Joined: Jun 28, 2005
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| Posted:
May 31, 2006 - 02:57 |
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The only reason vet coaches should make an [A] team is to try out a new race or tactics or skill combos. For example, I have relatively no experience with dwarf or chaos dwarf teams. My current dwarf team is 1/1/0, while my CD team lost both their matches (both teams in unranked). It's nice to have a group where you can make mistakes with a new race and not have it hurt your win % or CR (neither of which mean too much but are nice to look at) instead of losing 4 ranked games with a new race (ranked b/c you can hardly ever find games in most other divisions if it isn't a tournament).
I agree with the "IF Coach has no teams in other divsions than [A] THEN allowed to change to [U]". Otherwise it is open to much abuse (then again, what isn't these days?) |
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