z3d
Joined: Apr 16, 2005
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 Posted:
Sep 13, 2006 - 14:22 |
 
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or:
if you have no reroll and dont catch the ball to score then you loose. |
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Tophat
Joined: Jun 01, 2006
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| Posted:
Sep 13, 2006 - 14:25 |
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well then you lose ,but if the guy isnt even on the pitch to make the catch cos someone took him out of action os everyone hates werewolvs ...you lose too . |
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z3d
Joined: Apr 16, 2005
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| Posted:
Sep 13, 2006 - 14:33 |
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yeah sure, but the catch can help to score when they are on the pitch.
after 2 or 3 TDs i don't mind loosing a wolf, because after the match they will return.
anyway i like to roll catch rolls rather then regen rolls  |
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Tophat
Joined: Jun 01, 2006
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| Posted:
Sep 13, 2006 - 14:35 |
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| z3d wrote: | yeah sure, but the catch can help to score when they are on the pitch.
after 2 or 3 TDs i don't mind loosing a wolf, because after the match they will return.
anyway i like to roll catch rolls rather then regen rolls |
yeah but if the wolf gets taken out early , as in low tr teams your wolf is likely only 1 in 3 players with a chance of scoring you are uber screwed .
So there is no way that this is a nerf and its likely a boon . |
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z3d
Joined: Apr 16, 2005
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| Posted:
Sep 13, 2006 - 14:46 |
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look at this, please:
http://fumbbl.com/FUMBBL.php?page=match&id=1357270
I lost my wolf (due to my tactical error) in the end of the first half, but i was the winner of the match. catch is needed to win the game, regen is needed to survive in long term, thats why in league env. (like fumbbl) necro is stronger. |
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pac
Joined: Oct 03, 2005
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| Posted:
Sep 13, 2006 - 14:47 |
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| z3d wrote: | | pac wrote: | | z3d wrote: | | pac, never mind. as usual, we can't talk normally. |
Have any of your positions changed? Or are you still just moaning that Claw on your Werewolves isn't overpowered enough for you any more? |
pac, please, normal discussion, thx. |
Yes: it is a normal discussion - you're moaning about Werewolves as usual. Nice to see that months can pass while nothing changes.  |
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z3d
Joined: Apr 16, 2005
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| Posted:
Sep 13, 2006 - 15:16 |
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| pac wrote: | | Yes: it is a normal discussion - you're moaning about Werewolves as usual. Nice to see that months can pass while nothing changes. |
If you read my posts, you can see that i say, necro team is better in long term (as i playtest it in our league), so i've changed my mind
(and i moaned nerfed stand firm too) |
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Tophat
Joined: Jun 01, 2006
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| Posted:
Sep 13, 2006 - 15:44 |
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| z3d wrote: | look at this, please:
http://fumbbl.com/FUMBBL.php?page=match&id=1357270
I lost my wolf (due to my tactical error) in the end of the first half, but i was the winner of the match. catch is needed to win the game, regen is needed to survive in long term, thats why in league env. (like fumbbl) necro is stronger. |
so pointing to one game where you won because of catch , means your right? what if your wolf had died earlier in the match before scoring twice ? |
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dzonvejn
Joined: Sep 21, 2005
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| Posted:
Sep 13, 2006 - 15:54 |
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I think that wood elves are even more broken now.... first no claw on them, and then the most broken skill in new rules: wrestle.... Skaven too... Imagine this: all their players take wrestle and you can't attack them... dwarves lost the most... because of the wrest skill... instead of blodge with (all) elves I would use wrestle-fend skills (so they can't "both down" and "follow up" you....) |
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Tophat
Joined: Jun 01, 2006
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| Posted:
Sep 13, 2006 - 15:58 |
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| dzonvejn wrote: | | I think that wood elves are even more broken now.... first no claw on them, and then the most broken skill in new rules: wrestle.... Skaven too... Imagine this: all their players take wrestle and you can't attack them... dwarves lost the most... because of the wrest skill... instead of blodge with (all) elves I would use wrestle-fend skills (so they can't "both down" and "follow up" you....) |
Ah yeah i think i missed the bit in the rules where it said
"if a player has wrestle you may not attack them |
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pac
Joined: Oct 03, 2005
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| Posted:
Sep 13, 2006 - 16:10 |
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I too thought for a while that Wrestle might be all-powerful on that kind of player, but the great counter to it is Juggernaut+Block.
Take a plain old Human Blitzer, and give him Juggernaut and Tackle (normal skills). On a Blitz, he can take down a Wrestle/Dodger (Wrodger?) 75% of the time on a two dice block (Juggernaut cancels Wrestle. So you can pick Pow/Skull, cancel their Wrestle skill with Juggernaut (<b>don't</b> switch it to a pushback!), and take them down with Block).
Add Mighty Blow to that, and you'll be cutting a swathe through AV 7 again in no time. Add Piling On, and ...
Wrestle is still a skill worth taking, in my opinion, as the opponent can only blitz like that once per turn, after all. But over the course of a match, Wrestle players would suffer heavily against a developed Juggernaut, so it's not a game-breaker for me.
(As for Fend, Juggernaut can counter that too (on blitzes) as, effectively, can Grab on normal blocks. Both easy skills for Dwarves to get too.) |
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kwèk
Joined: Nov 13, 2005
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| Posted:
Sep 13, 2006 - 16:15 |
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Halfling Teams - About the same, took some nerfs but can induce a master chef and deeproot every game.
???
What are you talking abouth?
Inducements only come from the diffrence between the 2 teams thare playing.
Getting deeproot and the cheff only works if you go challeging a team that has 350 K diffrence.
and then comes the important stuff.
Trowing team mates got bad, you can only trow 2 lengths now, where you normally could trow 3.
We lost the mastercheff, meaning that you cant steal rerolls any game you want. And the new cheff (more cheff then master) only works for 3 rerolls, and all are at 50 procent succes rate.
Maybe flings cheff should be nerved (it hurted bad), but maybe we needed a dp slot of 2 from the start too, just to compensate.
Fling didnt got any better. While the other stunty races did (not including lizards... i dont like to call them stunty)
The former snotling team got reinvented wiht ogres now. And 6 ogre acces against 4 trolls is way better. Btw 6 ogres (6 saurusses), snotlings/skinks ... is anyone seeing a patern here ? or is it just me?
Ogres havent been nerved that much. Now you just start with more snotlings, easy to kill, but a mass of players on the bench means you got more fouling options. And these guys will foul.
Gobos, finally they get secret weapons, hip hip hoorey. And those weapons havent been nerved too much too. They can still be devastating.
Flings... well we got there already didnt we. * sigh *
PS: pls dont start to say flings did get better because of the sneaky git skill (what is made an agility skill to help "stunties"... yes our compensation for being smacked to the ground.
Sneaky git only works on a foul if you dont break armour.
Do the guys at GW really think we are going to foul without assists ? Going for the * dodge dodge * I foul your ogre with av 9 with 1 sneay git fling in the hope I kill you.
If you foul in this game, you make it count. Sneaky git is almost usuless in my opinion. |
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sk8bcn
Joined: Apr 13, 2004
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| Posted:
Sep 13, 2006 - 16:58 |
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catch on wolf is a game winner skill. mwahahahahahhaha! good joke...whatever.
I ll go back on chaos.
I firmly believe in deep rosters for long term gamestyle and player continuity. So let's I have 14 players. Let's say I aim for 4 rerolls and standart 11 FF (go and see the simulation about FF values in case of you disagree).
I will, for purposes of easiest view on TV, convert TV on a TR basis. Thus if you read 22TV understand 220k on TV. Not much difference but it will avoid LRB4 experts to be confused.
Let's compare orcs with chaos.
A 14 player roster:
Orc:
1 troll 11TV
4 bob 32TV
4blitzers 32TV
2 passers 14TV
3line 15TV
11FF= 11TV
4 rerolls 24TV
apo 5TV
Total:145TV
chaos
1 mino 16TV
4CW 40TV
9 beast 54TV
11 FF 11TV
4rerolls 24TV
apo 5TV
Total 150TV
On orcs I have 4 fairly realiable players to blitz and block (blitzers) + 2 players that help on safety pick up. But yet, my chaos team give away an inducement card or an extra apo.
Now if I could get 4 skills it would be:
Bob get's block (making orcs really safe) TV:153
CW get's block (my lineup gets strong) TV:158
ok now 4 skills more:
Orks: 4 guarders TV: 161
Chaos: 2 safe blitzers (block for beasts and 2 guards): 166
the orks still are safer in ball handling and bashing.
ok skill 9 to 12:
orks: let's go for diversity: 2 more guards, one blitzer gets MB, the other a usefull skill like Strip ball. TV:169
chaos: yet, we have 6 blockers and 2 guards. I pick 2 blockers more, finally reaching orks block level, one MB and 1 guard more. (still 3 guards behind orks) TV: 174
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up to this point, I am yet below ork bash power. But still, that was the case before. You will agree that so far, I couldn't really make a team orientation what I begin to do with orks.
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skill 13-16
ork: PO on the MB player, block on a thrower for a good thrower, a BOB get's SF, a blitzer get's tackle to be more versatile. TV: 177.
Honestly, the team get's pretty serious, don't you think?
Chaos: I add 2 guards for a total of 5. My Mino get's claw. I want one to get a line enforcer with juggernaut. I almost starting to diversify my team. TV 182.
Spirraling expenses and current status:
Starting roster Ork:
troll: guard
bob: block+guard+SF
bob: block+guard
bob: block+guard
bob: block+guard
blizter:block+guard
blizter:block+guard+tackle
blizter:block+strip ball
blizter:block+MB+PO
passer: pass+sure hands+block
passer: pass+sure hands
chaos
Mino: guard+claw
CW:block+guard
CW:block+guard
CW:block+guard
CW:block+guard
beastman:block+MB
beastman:block+juggernaut
beastman:block
beastman:block
beastman:
beastman:
I think you see where we go.
4 next skills
orcs:1 block on passer, 2nd SF, tackle, MB
chaos: I want to fill my team with block so 2 blocks, I am yet a bit light on guard, 1 guard, +1 PO for the beast.
TV 190 for chaos 20k in sustain.
I win half my games, get fame once out of 2 occurences, 57k in average in winnings so 37k of winnings. The slow down is evident.
=> that was thus my 1st point: you are already well hit by spirraling expenses when you start to have a lineup that enters into his "diversify" time.
57k winnings in average. How many loss averages? let's say 1 player out of 3 games at cost of 60k. That a replacement average of 20k/game.
TV 190=>37k effective winning average-20k of replacement rate=>17k left. Let's round up to 20k!
I have so reach my peak in about 30TV (TV 220). After that I start to have incomes lower than Spirraling Exp+replacement costs.
I estimated so far I only take simple and didn't picked a 5th reroll what is not common mentallity at high TV. Another reroll would have meant TV of 196.
I have a cap of 15 skills
chaos
Mino: guard+claw
CW:block+guard
CW:block+guard
CW:block+guard
CW:block+guard
beastman:block+MB+PO
beastman:block+juggernaut
beastman:block+guard
beastman:block
beastman:block
beastman:block
What do I pick:claw+guard+strip ball+surehands+big hand+claw+Mb+PO+2*SF
5 skill choice left. mmmmmm.
FA*2+kick+ grab+frenzy
Final roster:
Mino: guard+claw
CW:block+guard+SF
CW:block+guard+SF
CW:block+guard+FA
CW:block+guard+FA
beastman:block+MB+PO+claw+frenzy
beastman:block+juggernaut+strip ball+grab
beastman:block+guard
beastman:block+guard
beastman:block+sure hands+big hand+kick
beastman:block+claw+PO+MB
nice team, isn't it?
I would do very good results with such a line up, BUT:
it's my peak!!! I mean this is my team before falling down: and I counted a player loss rate of 1 every 3 games. I loose currently more than that.
I played the full phase before weaker in bash power!
My bash power is just concentrated in 2 players!
I considered I could skill then just AS I WANT and never ever skill up a substitute.
Under LRB4, a team at TR 220 was the point were I considered chaos to be really effective. Now it represents their peak. That's why I consider chaos to be weaker now than before.
ps: by peak I mean: you will still increase your TV but your treasury will get lower and lower: it's the start of your decrease. 100k in bank gives you a breath room to build with, but true expension is over. |
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pac
Joined: Oct 03, 2005
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| Posted:
Sep 13, 2006 - 17:46 |
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Wow, nice post, sk8 (although your boss should probably give you some work to do!).
This appears to support something I've argued for some time, which is that if/when these rules come to FUMBBL, there should be a variety of Spiralling Expense caps in different divisions and leagues.
Many coaches (especially in [R]) play BB primarily for the team-building, which Spiralling Expenses puts the squeeze on in the way that sk8 has illustrated - with SE you just can't get teams of the kind of stature you can under 4.0 (at least, not without picking your games so that you take next to no casualties, and do we want even more of that?). I think that a lot of coaches would be driven away from FUMBBL if the default Spiralling Expense caps were applied across the whole of the site.
Meanwhile, variable Spiralling Expense caps would be an extremely useful tool for Unranked leagues. In multi-division leagues like the SWL, they could replace the stricter pre-season TR caps, allowing a team to grow only as they progress up the divisional hierarchy.
Of course, there could be problems of abuse if teams were allowed to switch between leagues/divisions too easily, hopping to wherever the SE cap was most favourable to them. Also, if a very high cap was in place in [R], this would perpetuate the situation where only a handful of rosters (those with very high value players on their first 11 when fully developed) are truly competitive in the biggest competitions.
One solution might be a revised divisional system - which, given the number of other major changes that would be necessary to implement 5.0, would be a relatively trivial matter! This might look something like this:
[R] - Ranked division. Uses the default SE cap given in the rulebook. All official tournaments take place here, and only matches here affect CR. Teams may move out of [R] into [U] or [B], but teams may never move <i>into</i> [R].
[B] - Team-<b>b</b>uilding division. Uses a much higher SE cap to permit the development of more extravagant teams. Teams may not move out of [B].
[U] - Unranked division. Remains the home of user-created leagues, which would be allowed to select different SE caps for their divisions from a range of pre-set options. All of these options would be lower caps than that in [B], however. Teams may move from [U] to [B].
Faction could perhaps have different SE caps for its different divisions. Stunty has lots of its own issues to work out with respect to 5.0 before SE comes up. Academy could have a very low SE cap rather than the present 150 TR cap, to encourage teams which begin to outgrow [A] to move into Unranked. |
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Tophat
Joined: Jun 01, 2006
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| Posted:
Sep 13, 2006 - 17:55 |
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I wouldnt like their to be varying caps in ranked as the more you do that the lower the player base is , already at certain (insomniacish )times of the day its a struggle to find games , so splitting the player base into different spirals would be devastating as it would move people away from pure ranked having too many leagues would delete the player base . |
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