cmac
Joined: Aug 14, 2006
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 Posted:
Sep 20, 2006 - 12:23 |
 
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Two wardancers, one with guard the other with dauntless and stripball. Get a lineman to cancel the assist on the relevant corner of the cage.
Choose games against players that hopefully wont stomp on your head when the leap fails (avoid wuhan)
http://fumbbl.com/FUMBBL.php?page=team&op=view&team_id=291800
Cage breaker  |
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Tophat
Joined: Jun 01, 2006
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Sep 20, 2006 - 12:29 |
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um you do realise that if you didnt bother jumping in the ag4 guard first you would have a better chance of stripping the ball if you just went in with the strip ball player .
chance of one player failing leap 1/3 , chance of failing to strip ball after leap 1/3
chance of first player failing leap 1/3 ,chance of second player failing leap 1/3 , chance of failing strip ball 1/12 |
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chunky04
Joined: Aug 11, 2003
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Sep 20, 2006 - 14:40 |
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Those wardancers are pretty scarce on a Human team, or a norse team, etc...
Lets not mention what happens when it dies either.
The article is about general fundamentals of anti-cage play, not gimmicks available to certain teams.
I think we can take this off the forum now Mezir, its getting off track. |
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chunky - you are eloquence on legs |
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johan
Joined: Aug 02, 2003
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Sep 20, 2006 - 14:43 |
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What you want is an AG 5/Leap/Guard player for the assist. |
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”It's very sad
To see the ancient and distinguished game that used to be
A model of decorum and tranquillity
Become like any other sport, a battleground...”
—Benny Andersson & Björn Ulvaeus, Chess |
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annachie
Joined: Jul 27, 2004
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Sep 20, 2006 - 15:57 |
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What people need to do is not talk about team specific soloutions in a general article. |
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Laviak
Joined: Jul 19, 2004
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Sep 20, 2006 - 16:29 |
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Writing the article from a "how should I try to break an orc cage with a human team" is probably a good basis. You obviously have to vary the strategies with different teams, but if you can effectively break an orc cage with humans, you can probably do it with/against quite a few of the other teams too.
Now, if someone can tell me how to break a dwarf cage with a zon team, and still have enough players to score a TD in the second half, i'd be greatly appreciative  (assume ~TR200ish, and even TR/TS)
One thing that isn't specifically mentioned that I find can work (with varying success) is to separate the cage from the other players on the team. If you can keep the other players from reinforcing the cage, you have a much better chance of breaking the cage. The ideal situation is one where you can put a screen between the cage and the rest of the team, and then put 2-3 players with side-step or stand firm onto the cage - something so that you have a good chance of having at least one or two of them still standing when it comes to your turn. This is particularly effective with elves, as the screening players are able to break free fairly easily (chances are they will all be zoned by the players that they are holding at bay) to help pull the cage to pieces in the following turn. |
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Tophat
Joined: Jun 01, 2006
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Sep 20, 2006 - 16:46 |
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| chunky04 wrote: | Those wardancers are pretty scarce on a Human team, or a norse team, etc...
Lets not mention what happens when it dies either.
The article is about general fundamentals of anti-cage play, not gimmicks available to certain teams.
I think we can take this off the forum now Mezir, its getting off track. |
I really dont understand why you say this , if you are discusing cage breaking i dont think that a possible use of a ag4 player with leap/strip ball is too big a step into the realms of unlikely team gimmicks .
anti cage play is extremly different for people with access to ag4 than for people without ag4 and team building is an important aspect of cage breaking .
You seem to have highlighted very much the st3 ag3 way of breaking cages effectively but have failed to mention the ag4s options , perhaps misleading ag4 players looking for hints that they have to play by the same rules as ag3 cage breakers .
The fundamentals for cage breaking as an ag4 team are different to that of an ag3 team .
Trying to say that what team you have is irrelevant as to how you would deal with a cage seems a bit of a strange statement to me .
Yes wardancers arent common on human teams , but players with equivelent skills are available on aproximatly 1/4 of active bloodbowl teams on fumbbl. |
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chunky04
Joined: Aug 11, 2003
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Sep 21, 2006 - 00:11 |
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Tophat - I have seen elf teams make far better use of the sort of strategy I am outlining than anyone else, with no need for the leap gimmick. Even with the leap, a lot of the things in the article are still valid, unless you intend to just leap straight in with no backup or support of any kind. It also assumes that the bashy coach will make no attempt to make life harder for the leaping player in question, or that the ballcarrier lacks Sure Hands. If you want to try and leap into a cage and hit the Runner or Thrower when he's surrounded by Guard Longbeards or Blitzers, feel free. Many elven coaches in ranked will not get much experience trying to crack these sorts of cage, and if they are reliant on the leap gimmick, will in all likelihood come completely unstuck. This will probably happen in a FUMBBLSmack or unranked tourney where they have no choice but to play these teams. Looking at your match record bears this out. You don't seem to have more than a handful of games against the sort of strong, well coached Orc or Dwarf teams that would likely make a mockery of the leap gimmick.
Regardless I will not be responding to anymore comments about the leap gimmick. I have made my position on it quite clear, and if you would prefer to keep it as a crutch, there is no need to read the article. If you would like to add to the number of tools in your repetoire against the bashy hordes, I hope you find something worthwhile. |
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chunky - you are eloquence on legs |
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Macavity
Joined: Nov 23, 2004
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Sep 21, 2006 - 00:30 |
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Wll, if there is, even a small, list of team specific ideas added on, please mention how great the Stunty skill is for cage breaking! |
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When I became a man I put away childish things, including the fear of childishness and the desire to be very grown up. -C.S. Lewis |
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annachie
Joined: Jul 27, 2004
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Sep 21, 2006 - 00:39 |
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I can see a followup article comming on team specific cage breaking techniques. Possibly with multiple authors
Personally, I like the "Toss a gobbo at the cage and hope you hit something" approach. Not necessarily effective, but fun. |
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Tophat
Joined: Jun 01, 2006
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Sep 21, 2006 - 00:49 |
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| chunky04 wrote: | Tophat - I have seen elf teams make far better use of the sort of strategy I am outlining than anyone else, with no need for the leap gimmick. Even with the leap, a lot of the things in the article are still valid, unless you intend to just leap straight in with no backup or support of any kind. It also assumes that the bashy coach will make no attempt to make life harder for the leaping player in question, or that the ballcarrier lacks Sure Hands. If you want to try and leap into a cage and hit the Runner or Thrower when he's surrounded by Guard Longbeards or Blitzers, feel free. Many elven coaches in ranked will not get much experience trying to crack these sorts of cage, and if they are reliant on the leap gimmick, will in all likelihood come completely unstuck. This will probably happen in a FUMBBLSmack or unranked tourney where they have no choice but to play these teams. Looking at your match record bears this out. You don't seem to have more than a handful of games against the sort of strong, well coached Orc or Dwarf teams that would likely make a mockery of the leap gimmick.
Regardless I will not be responding to anymore comments about the leap gimmick. I have made my position on it quite clear, and if you would prefer to keep it as a crutch, there is no need to read the article. If you would like to add to the number of tools in your repetoire against the bashy hordes, I hope you find something worthwhile. |
Well out of 200 odd games ive played about 12 orcs , 10 dwarfs and 5 chaos dwarfs , not really a huge amount of games , and i never stated that it was the only way in but its generally in my experience a lot better than anything else if your opponent dosent have the sure hands player ,I was by know means saying you should scrap your whole article and replace it with "leap in and blitz the ball carrier with strip ball . " against dwarves and orcs with multi guard sure hand combo its not very effective . But is this guide then only about those types of cages if so then fair enough your guide is conclusive . |
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Korhil
Joined: Aug 02, 2003
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Sep 21, 2006 - 00:49 |
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| chunky04 wrote: | | Regardless I will not be responding to anymore comments about the leap gimmick. |
It doesn't work so well against a Block/SureHands ball carrier in a cage with lots of guard, that is definately true.
However, Leaping Stripballers need to be considered by the caging player. You have to stay tight or risk giving them a chance on the ball.
Leaping in is either a play of desperation after the cage has formed and will be able to keep rolling down field, or the play that you're finally able to make after having forced them to leave a spot for a 1db with your Leaping Stripballer.
It's more a consideration for the caging player to be aware of than a fundamental part of breaking a cage.
You have do have done some other ground work to create the chance for the Leaping play to be worth attempting.
---Korhil |
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MrB
Joined: Jul 05, 2006
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Sep 21, 2006 - 02:35 |
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Just as a thought, if someone has the knowledge and the skill to write it, Id like to see this as a set of two articles - a cage breaking one and a caging one. Setting up and moving forward a cage isn't easy by any stretch and I think a series of two linked articles could be kinda cool. Could even do it with other areas of strategy as well |
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chunky04
Joined: Aug 11, 2003
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Sep 21, 2006 - 02:46 |
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Its a good idea Mr B, and on I've given thought to, but I don't think I'm a good enough cager myself to write that article. I much prefer screens myself.
I would like to see a whole series of strategy articles personally. Generally we tend to get a lot of information on skill picks, how to build a team etc, but not a whole lot of useful information on actual in-game decisions.
I think the idea of taking specific in-game situations and getting a number of different coaches takes on them has a lot of merit (even with exactly the same team, different coaches tend to have a different style of play - not necessarily better or worse, just different), and I have a good idea of how I would approach it. |
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