FUMBBL :: Online Blood Bowl League

pac

Joined: Oct 03, 2005

Posted: Dec 21, 2006 - 15:08

TuernRedvenom wrote:

Quote:

1) Chaos Dwarves - as the team who can get the full combo on players who start with Block and Tackle. There were too many posters in that thread saying, 'But CDs need one double …' As if it's a rare thing …

IMO the idea was to get more Claw players out there to hurt the bash teams. It matters little to elves (may even be beneficial as otherwise CD's often took Diving Tackle on a double) as they are AV7 or 8. For bashy teams it matters a bit. They need to suffer more from bashing now that aging is gone so I don't really see the problem here.

Well, it's essentially the same problem as the one we were talking about with Amazons earlier: what consolation is it to one team to know that there's another team perfectly built to take out the team that's just trampled all over them?

More plainly: Chaos Dwarves are an exceptionally good team. Exceptionally good teams should not get bonuses without paying something for it (and please don't tell me that losing the Troll was the price …). As a proponent of balance with no (or minimal) regard to fluff I would have expected you to be the first to recognise this.

_________________
Join us in building Blood Bowl Sixth Edition.
In other news, the Hittites are back. Join us in #fumbbl.hi Very Happy

Forteza

Joined: Oct 27, 2006

Posted: Dec 21, 2006 - 15:34

Hi maybe this is the wrong thread, but what happens with al the existing teams when the new rules apply?

TuernRedvenom

Joined: Apr 12, 2005

Posted: Dec 21, 2006 - 15:53

pac wrote:

TuernRedvenom wrote:

Quote:

1) Chaos Dwarves - as the team who can get the full combo on players who start with Block and Tackle. There were too many posters in that thread saying, 'But CDs need one double …' As if it's a rare thing …

IMO the idea was to get more Claw players out there to hurt the bash teams. It matters little to elves (may even be beneficial as otherwise CD's often took Diving Tackle on a double) as they are AV7 or 8. For bashy teams it matters a bit. They need to suffer more from bashing now that aging is gone so I don't really see the problem here.

Well, it's essentially the same problem as the one we were talking about with Amazons earlier: what consolation is it to one team to know that there's another team perfectly built to take out the team that's just trampled all over them?

More plainly: Chaos Dwarves are an exceptionally good team. Exceptionally good teams should not get bonuses without paying something for it (and please don't tell me that losing the Troll was the price …). As a proponent of balance with no (or minimal) regard to fluff I would have expected you to be the first to recognise this.

The comparison to the amazon point is not valid. Amazons are rock/paper/scissors out of the box. Every team can be developed to eg break down passing teams and be totally worthless against another playstyle. Nothing you can do about that.
As for why chaos dwarves, indeed an excellent team in lrb 4, needed another upgrade. I don't think they really needed it but it I also don't think CD's are so uber now. Fouling has changed and fend is a skill cd's will find very frustrating. This is a bit of a gut feeling though but I don't think that adding mutations on doubles for cd blockers will make a big difference on the cd win rate. We'll see...
That said I also don't see why it was necesary to make this change.

pac

Joined: Oct 03, 2005

Posted: Dec 21, 2006 - 16:54

TuernRedvenom wrote:

The comparison to the amazon point is not valid. Amazons are rock/paper/scissors out of the box. Every team can be developed to eg break down passing teams and be totally worthless against another playstyle. Nothing you can do about that.

I think the comparison is there. If we agree that the lists should not be rock/paper/scissors in form - or, a better analogy, 'swallow a spider to catch a fly' in form - then making CDs better at beating up AV 9 teams makes no sense. If AV 9 teams are a problem (and I'm not aware that they are), then there has to be a universal solution to the problem, and not one limited to one list (or a small number of lists).

In other words, if Amazons are a problem, it's not enough to say, 'Don't worry, the Dwarves will sort them out'. And if Orcs (or Dwarves, or whoever) are a problem, it's not enough to say, 'Don't worry, the CDs will sort them out'.

_________________
Join us in building Blood Bowl Sixth Edition.
In other news, the Hittites are back. Join us in #fumbbl.hi Very Happy

fen

Joined: Sep 10, 2005

Posted: Dec 21, 2006 - 16:55

Vanguard wrote:

dont say tentacles over frenzy its the same math ^^

I don't think anyone would mention Tentacles in LRB5. Have you actually seen how poor it is on a ST4 player?

SnakeSanders

Joined: Aug 02, 2003

Posted: Dec 21, 2006 - 18:52

well maybe if we gave the blockers a price hike as well? Confused

10k x 6 is at least 6TV and the difference in an inducement.

Id run a Chaos Dwarf team in the MBBL, but Im currently testing the following teams...

Humans (intrigued to how to develop my linos with loads of options now), also tempted to havea few killer Blitzers
Nurgle - Had to be done! Im 3 spp away from my first Claw/MB/Block player. Ive been able to protect him well but he is the team at present Confused

Dwarf - Gotta try to get a team full of Guard/MB/Grab/Piling On longbeards Laughing

Khemri - Again, I want to see how they are affected. Currently Im averaging 3 cas a game and current game is going terribly... they just cant defend...
Orcs - Much the same as humans, though I could drop them, but want to test them a bit more first!

Im also only allowed 5 teams in MBBL Sad

so guys come on and play!

/me pokes Fama, who has the makings of a nice CD team in MBBL Wink

TuernRedvenom

Joined: Apr 12, 2005

Posted: Dec 22, 2006 - 08:59

pac wrote:

In other words, if Amazons are a problem, it's not enough to say, 'Don't worry, the Dwarves will sort them out'. And if Orcs (or Dwarves, or whoever) are a problem, it's not enough to say, 'Don't worry, the CDs will sort them out'.

That's clearly not the same thing IMO, just look at the scope of impact. Amazons is very focused while CD claw will affect nearly every team.
Claw is the number 1 way to get attritiion on high AV teams. High AV teams should also suffer more damage in LRB 5 as the LRB 4 mechanism of aging is scrapped. Granted, it is somewhat a design flaw IMO that claw is not available to every team. Whether a dwarf team in mutationless league will be balanced, I don't know. But the non-mutating teams (especially the non-bashy ones which also need 2 doubles for MB/PO) do kinda miss a good way to get rid of a key high AV player now that fouling has changed.
We'll have to see how this works out.

TuernRedvenom

Joined: Apr 12, 2005

Posted: Dec 22, 2006 - 09:07

brownrob wrote:

Im also only allowed 5 teams in MBBL Sad

so guys come on and play!

I made new chaos dwarf team and challenged you. Never played them before so this will likely be a blowout, but maybe if I roll enough doubles on the dwarves...

SnakeSanders

Joined: Aug 02, 2003

Posted: Dec 22, 2006 - 09:46

TuernRedvenom wrote:

brownrob wrote:

Im also only allowed 5 teams in MBBL Sad

so guys come on and play!

I made new chaos dwarf team and challenged you. Never played them before so this will likely be a blowout, but maybe if I roll enough doubles on the dwarves...

Thanks! Challenge accepted! Now lets see what nastiness you bring to the pitch Laughing

TuernRedvenom

Joined: Apr 12, 2005

Posted: Dec 22, 2006 - 11:00

Gah! Can't seem to load the gamefile, my client just hangs... Very strange as I have played in MBBL without any probs before, although that is almost 1 year ago now.

Rob, can you zip and send the file again to make sure it didn't get corrupted in transfer?

SnakeSanders

Joined: Aug 02, 2003

Posted: Dec 22, 2006 - 18:50

TuernRedvenom wrote:

Gah! Can't seem to load the gamefile, my client just hangs... Very strange as I have played in MBBL without any probs before, although that is almost 1 year ago now.

Rob, can you zip and send the file again to make sure it didn't get corrupted in transfer?

Now I think its over as a contest before the 1st half is over... Bull, 2 Blockers and a hobbo out vs a full strength Nurgle team... that S5 Nurgle warrior will be an abomination! Laughing

nin

Joined: May 27, 2005

Posted: Dec 22, 2006 - 19:25

pac wrote:

In other words, if Amazons are a problem, it's not enough to say, 'Don't worry, the Dwarves will sort them out'. And if Orcs (or Dwarves, or whoever) are a problem, it's not enough to say, 'Don't worry, the CDs will sort them out'.

why not?

it won't work very well here, but it seems to be fine in tabletop

Amazons don't win all leagues because of this Tackle and Dwarves (Wood Elves also have nice chances against them)... and may be there is a little problem with ar9, so good basher ar9 teams are a bit too much invulnerable and DP has changed, and no ageing, and... then, as they can't dodge Claws in a standard tabletop league, it may work.

(question is if there's a better solution, answer is you can allways play chess imho)

MrRazorback

Joined: Dec 07, 2006

Posted: Dec 22, 2006 - 19:54

Mathematics makes me feel kinda funny, like when we climb the rope in gym class...

pac

Joined: Oct 03, 2005

Posted: Dec 22, 2006 - 20:39

TuernRedvenom wrote:

pac wrote:

In other words, if Amazons are a problem, it's not enough to say, 'Don't worry, the Dwarves will sort them out'. And if Orcs (or Dwarves, or whoever) are a problem, it's not enough to say, 'Don't worry, the CDs will sort them out'.

That's clearly not the same thing IMO, just look at the scope of impact. Amazons is very focused while CD claw will affect nearly every team.

Well, that's a supplementary issue. But you were the one (I think) who suggested that the reason (or one of the reasons) why CDs had been given Claw in the first place was to create a team which could do damage to the bashers.

_________________
Join us in building Blood Bowl Sixth Edition.
In other news, the Hittites are back. Join us in #fumbbl.hi Very Happy

pac

Joined: Oct 03, 2005

Posted: Dec 22, 2006 - 20:43

nin wrote:

pac wrote:

In other words, if Amazons are a problem, it's not enough to say, 'Don't worry, the Dwarves will sort them out'. And if Orcs (or Dwarves, or whoever) are a problem, it's not enough to say, 'Don't worry, the CDs will sort them out'.

why not?

it won't work very well here, but it seems to be fine in tabletop

Does it? As always, with table-top we simply don't have the data. But we can picture a scenario: it's quite possible for there to be a league with a couple of Amazon teams where no one runs Dwarves or Chaos Dwarves.

But the question was not whether the 'swallow a spider to catch a fly' approach is good design - that's another debate entirely! I would certainly argue that it wasn't, but it really is a separate discussion.

Quote:

(question is if there's a better solution, answer is you can allways play chess imho)

They allow chainsaws in chess now?

_________________
Join us in building Blood Bowl Sixth Edition.
In other news, the Hittites are back. Join us in #fumbbl.hi Very Happy