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I just received a letter from Games Workshop Group PLC. I will copy the letter here for you to read (note that there may be spelling errors made by me here as I had to type it in by hand):
29 October 2009 Dear Sirs Infringement of Games Workshop Limited's Intellectual Property Rights Games Workshop Limited has for some time been engaged in the business of designing, manufacturing and marketing: hobby board games; war games; models; miniatures; and associated products and in the course of this business has acquired and registered a large number of copyrights and other intellectual property rights. It has recently come to our attention that much of the information hosted on your website, www.fumbbl.com (the "Website"), provides us with cause for concern as it conflicts with our intellectual property rights. Although we are confident that the Website is a well-intentioned resource, we are acutely aware of the need to assert our intellectual property rights. Specifically, our causes for concern are that: * the Website contains copies of Blood Bowl statistics and rules; * tje Java Bowl programme contains various pieces of GW Blood Bowl art including the Blood Bowl pitch and Blood Bowl logo; and * the Java Bowl programme uses all the Blood Bowl rules and statistics for each model. As you may appreciate, GW has a strict policy of protecting all of its intellectual property rights. To this end, we must insist that these materials are removed from the Website. By way of background to our concerns, copyright is a right that vests in the creator as soon as the material in question is created, in this case the Blood Bowl game. Therefore having created the game and accomapnying rules/statistics GW owns the copyright in them making it an offence for others to cause them, or products substantially based on them, to be published. Similarly it is an offence to trade off registered trademarks belonging to others, in this case `Blood Bowl´. This is of particular concern to GW as fiven the content of your website, and the numerous and explicit references to Blood Bowl, there is a very real possibility that people could assume there to be some connection between your site and GW. Despite the presence of a modest disclaimer that GW is unable to accept as not only does it pose a financial risk, but there is the potential for harm to be caused to the GW brand. It is the usual policy of GW to always enforce its rights against any party infringing its intellectual property rights by means of appropriate legal proceedings. However in the present circumstances we will be willing to refrain from such action should you agree to remove the aforementioned items from the Website. Therefore, we would be grateful if within fourteen days of the date of this letter you would procide written undertakings, in a form acceptable to us, that you: 1. have received and understood the contents of this letter: 2. will cease and desist from any activities which infringes GW's intellectual property rights; 3. remove the Java Bowl link, and any materials subject to GW's copyright, from your site; and 4. confirm by return that you will not infringe GW's intellectual property rights at any time in the future. If you are in any doubt as to the contents of this letter we suggest that you seek independant legal advice, or alternatively should you need clarification as to what you can and cannot do with GW's intellectual policy we refer you to out Intellectual Property Policy (http://legal.games-workshop.com). We duly look forward to your anticipated compliance without recourse to more formal methods of enforcement. Yours faithfully Games Workshop |
| Games Workshop letter | Login/Create an account | 210 Comments | |
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There we go
by Alf115 on Nov 12, 2009 - 11:33 (User info | Send a message) http:// |
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The 2 weeks delay is still way too harsh after doing nothing for 10+ years |
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Re: Games Workshop letter
by JimmyBlitz (joshshott@gmail.com) on Nov 12, 2009 - 11:34 (User info | Send a message) http:// |
| so is Fumbbl dead? |
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Re: Games Workshop letter
by JockMcRowdy (chickensalad@badgerbadgerbadger.com) on Nov 12, 2009 - 11:34 (User info | Send a message) http://www.undercheese.co.uk |
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Games Workshop need to die, slow and painfully. This is a product they barely support any longer why make sure an issue. As a direct result of this site I have spent money at GW that I would never have done otherwise. Complete morons. Will never give them another penny, I love the GT but I think this is enough now. |
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Re: Games Workshop letter
by Afro on Nov 12, 2009 - 11:34 (User info | Send a message) http://http:// |
| And what does it mean ? The End ? |
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Re: Games Workshop letter
by Rijssiej on Nov 12, 2009 - 11:36 (User info | Send a message) http:// |
| How nice they give you 14 days from the time of sending the letter, while it took the letter 14 days to reach you. |
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Re: Games Workshop letter
by Cloggy on Nov 12, 2009 - 11:41 (User info | Send a message) http:// |
| Uh.... oh..... |
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Re: Games Workshop letter
by JockMcRowdy (chickensalad@badgerbadgerbadger.com) on Nov 12, 2009 - 11:41 (User info | Send a message) http://www.undercheese.co.uk |
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Excuse my angry typos. First line i meant such not sure. I dont understand, most things that become popular have fans, fans want to talk about it, want to have their own places to talk about it in their way, they make fansites. The original thing embraces the fansite, as it makes their fans even more devoted and likely to spread good work of mouth. Unless you are GW, you wait years to check out the fansites and then screw them over, destroying any goodwill and word of mouth that has been created. I know its technically an infringement but any fool can realise that fumbbl and talkbloodbowl have done GOOD NOT BAD for their product. |
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Re: Games Workshop letter
by Nemeton on Nov 12, 2009 - 11:47 (User info | Send a message) http://www.ryes.dk |
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Bugger! Well if they close down Fumbbl then I am definitely never ever going to spend any more money on any of their products again. |
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Re: Games Workshop letter
by Odane on Nov 12, 2009 - 11:51 (User info | Send a message) http:// |
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Although I am as mad as the rest on this site, we have to understand that GW must send out this letter to comply with copyright law. They can not get a renewal if they don't pursue copyright infringement. However, I would certainly be willing to pay a one time small sum of money to continue to use this site and everything on it. Although most of the people here will probably not consider this a viable option. Will this mean the end for Fumbbl? Hardly, the letter only say that you have to remove the "links" to any GW-related material, not change the client in itself. It will probably be much harder for new people to begin using fumbbl though. |
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Re: Games Workshop letter
by DonTomaso (tomtid-at-bredband.net) on Nov 12, 2009 - 11:56 (User info | Send a message) http://http:// |
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Why do they write 'Yours faithfully' when the don't mean it..? Too bad they don't see the possibility on keeping this community alive... lots of the players here are buyers of their products, both BB and other. Still, as someone said, it is to keep the copyright. So, take the site down for half a year, wait for the renewal of the copyright, and then put up the site again.. :) |
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Re: Games Workshop letter
by torsoboy on Nov 12, 2009 - 11:57 (User info | Send a message) http:// |
| I think that this is the legalese way of getting people to hop on the Cyanide train? Could you (Christer) not approach them to sponsor this site? Perhaps a cooperation would be better for everybody's business instead of a sudden cut-off which will undoubtedly enrage many fans. |
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Re: Games Workshop letter
by Shraaaag on Nov 12, 2009 - 12:05 (User info | Send a message) http://www.pvv.ntnu.no/brill/ |
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It's far from the end of FUMBBL as a website, just need to remove some copies of rules and statistic (and maybe add a link to the offical site with rules?), and some Blood Bowl/GW art. But I'm not sure what this mean for FUMBBL as a league. The client is obviously in conflict with the IP legal rights, so you can't actually have a link to it on the website, but can we still use it and upload the result? Is there any good alternative? I wish there was some compromise, like a bloodbowl client (similar to the current client, no fancy smancy processor hogger) sanctioned by GW we could use, and in return we could allow some GW banners around the site. But that's never gonna happen :( Btw, I'm surprised they didn't mentioned the PayPal button on FUMBBL (like they did on other sites). |
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Re: Games Workshop letter
by Fela on Nov 12, 2009 - 12:06 (User info | Send a message) http://http:// |
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I would contact GW and try to get a license agreement with them. If I understood things correctly you could agree to anything from 1% to 100% of the site's net revenue (i.e. 0). That should sufficiently protect GW interests concerning the trademark. I suppose if Cyanide had gained exclusive rights to the blood bowl franchise in electronic form you would have heard from their lawyers, not GW's. |
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Re: Games Workshop letter
by RamonSalazar on Nov 12, 2009 - 12:12 (User info | Send a message) http:// |
| Wouldnt it be a solution if we go back the old days to upload results manually? No links to javabbowl would necessary. |
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Re: Games Workshop letter
by Ancre on Nov 12, 2009 - 12:12 (User info | Send a message) http:// |
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So, what is going to happen to Fumbbl ? I guess the images and the names aren't such a big deal, but the letter states the use of the rules is also one of their causes of concern ... it is of no use changing the site to comply to them if the result mean we're not playing blood bowl at all anymore. |
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Re: Games Workshop letter
by Pirog on Nov 12, 2009 - 12:39 (User info | Send a message) http:// |
| I think Christer should try to come to an agreement with GW. Since Fumbbl is the only site that offers Blood Bowl with the LRB4 rule set maybe there is a way to become an official GW partner. I think most dedicated players would be willing to pay a reasonable one time fee (which would also be an effective way to deal with cheaters) to be able to use the Fumbbl content. |
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Re: Games Workshop letter
by GeneralMarauder on Nov 12, 2009 - 12:45 (User info | Send a message) http:// |
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<quote>1. have received and understood the contents of this letter: 2. will cease and desist from any activities which infringes GW's intellectual property rights; 3. remove the Java Bowl link, and any materials subject to GW's copyright, from your site; and 4. confirm by return that you will not infringe GW's intellectual property rights at any time in the future.</quote> So basically you remove the 'Play'- link from the main page (have never used it, dunno why it's there as teams have their own links and you can launch it from desktop if you're loading a game) and move bb rules to some other site and give sticky link to it in the forum. Does non-public website have same rules as a public one? Just wondering if the site would be for only registered users, would the things still be same? |
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Re: Games Workshop letter
by Barre on Nov 12, 2009 - 12:45 (User info | Send a message) http:// |
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Ok ok, here's what you do.. shh shh shh listen.. We shut down the site for three months, Christer moves all the gear over to someone elses house and they set it all up again.. bam! 10 more years before the fat arses at GW go hunting again! |
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Re: Games Workshop letter
by SillySod on Nov 12, 2009 - 12:45 (User info | Send a message) http:// |
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On firefox tabbed browsing this page shows up as "Games Workshop Letter :: FU..." Good luck and thank you Christer. |
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Re: Games Workshop letter
by DrDiscoStu (disco@hotmail.com) on Nov 12, 2009 - 12:49 (User info | Send a message) http:// |
| we sure this isnt one of the cheaters giving a prank? |
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Re: Games Workshop letter
by Faulcon on Nov 12, 2009 - 12:52 (User info | Send a message) http:// |
| Without fumbbl I would have never even heard of Blood Bowl. |
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Re: Games Workshop letter
by Kalimar on Nov 12, 2009 - 12:59 (User info | Send a message) http:// |
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While Fumbbl as a site itself may well survive by complying to the requests stated in the letter moving to a better integrated client (with a server hosted by Fumbbl) such as the one currently in development is out of the question. I wonder if a concerted effort to re-implement the rules without GW references is realistic / manageable. Going the way of "Alien Assault" is the only possible future for the client that I can see. And even then it's not safe either - Cyanide got sued over "Chaos League" without having a 1:1 copy of the ruleset. I also wonder how the BBRC feels about putting in all this work and then getting their hoops kicked by forcing talkbloodbowl to close or shift in a way that it does not reference their work (done there for the most part) any longer. |
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Re: Games Workshop letter
by OldBugman on Nov 12, 2009 - 01:04 (User info | Send a message) http://http:// |
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Did games workshop really open the letter 'Sear Airs' and sign off "Yours Faithfully Games Workshop" Maybe it's a crazy euro thing, but neither seem to me to be the correct way to open or close a letter. |
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Re: Games Workshop letter
by Sighcrow on Nov 12, 2009 - 01:07 (User info | Send a message) http://http:// |
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Way to piss off approx 60k people that more then likely buy your products and promote them by word of mouth etc... |
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Re: Games Workshop letter
by Balle2000 on Nov 12, 2009 - 01:22 (User info | Send a message) http:// |
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Anger and vitriol.... fair enough. But lets stay calm. We have to find out how we can work around this problem legally, not sit around huffing and puffing on the forums. Some facts: - We all own a copy of the Blood Bowl boardgame (right?) - We have a right to play with anyone we chose - We have the right to convey our moves electronically to an opponent at another geographical location (i.e. through the internet) - We have the right to organize ourselves and establish leagues, i.e. like Christer has done for us here on Fumbbl I think it is important that the new SOFTWARE (aka lrb5 client) that is here to help us play our purchased boardgames - and administer matches - with people of a different geographical location, has to be stripped of any copyright infringing material. GW has had its lawyers tell Christer/us what they think. Maybe we all could donate for a lawyer to help us manouver these rocky waters, so that we can come out on the other side, still being able to rightfully play our legally purchased boardgame while not in the same physical location. |
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Re: Games Workshop letter
by morraywolfymax on Nov 12, 2009 - 01:48 (User info | Send a message) http://www.federalwelder.com |
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How's about every coach here sends a letter to the legal department with possible proof of purchase? Surely a massive bombardment of letters would be an eye opener? past that how's about an email from us all? Anyone got an email? |
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Re: Games Workshop letter
by BVZRoma on Nov 12, 2009 - 01:55 (User info | Send a message) http:// |
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After having seen this letter, I personally hope that GW will make the same bankrupt that TSR did in the '90s when their establishment was more concerned in copyright battles than in producing new games and educating people to gaming. I refuse to sing now a "de profundis", but I'm afraid that without giving them money (like an annual subscription fee for each player) and the control of the game they will have no interest in keeping alive a fan community like this. By my knowledge GW is not fairsighted... Christer, you have all my support, I trust you and the other admins will make everything is possible to keep Fumbbl open. For ten yrs you've helped to keep alive a game that GW does not support just because you can play it spending just 100-150$ instead than the tons of money neeeded to assemble an army in WFB or W40+. |
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Re: Games Workshop letter
by Gran on Nov 12, 2009 - 02:12 (User info | Send a message) http:// |
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Ouch... (I yelled other stuff at my screen, but better not post that here.) Should this end up being it I would like to thank Christer, the team (present and previous), and all fellow FUMBBLers. However, I don't feel like giving up just yet. I think Balle2000 might be on to something. The only issues that GW can actually press are the use of their IP as stated in their IPP and that is: 1. Don't keep the rules on your site. 2. Don't use our images. 3. Don't make a BB-game. Points 1 and 2 are not hard to fix. There is no actual need for the rules to be posted on the site. It's practical, but not a must. The images can go without any real problem. All the official FUMBBL stuff has been created by users anyway, and we even have user created pitches and player pictures. The real kicker is point 3 and, as Balle2000 stated, there might be a point in stressing the fact that JBB and the new client are not games, they are clients. Software to facilitate what is basically TT gaming over distances via the web. In essence no different than playing by mail, postcard, phone or pigeon. The only point of the software is to: A) facilitate handling of results for long distance games, B) ensure against cheating by handling die rolls, rules, etc. Can we successfully argue this with GW? And if not, can we have/make a working client that doesn't contain the rules? Also something to point to: Most big modern boardgames can be played via clients similar to JBB endorsed, often funded and ran by, the companies producing the game. Is there a chance to get GWs endorsement? I don't think they really want to loose so many customers in one go, and keeping FUMBBL is imperative for keeping many of us in the game. I was contemplating an investment in models and paint for some £100, but I can tell you I've grown somewhat cool to the whole deal now. |
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Re: Games Workshop letter
by Grouchy on Nov 12, 2009 - 02:25 (User info | Send a message) http://http:// |
| Wonder if they send a letter to Ebay next, thats where I get my models from. |
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Re: Games Workshop letter
by Zaranug on Nov 12, 2009 - 02:26 (User info | Send a message) http:// |
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I like it! I mean i occasionally play Blood Bowl here but since so many freaks who run and try to own this game just because of this website might now get the idea the DONT OWN BLOODBOWL and that it is the sole property of GW. Who cares if you think they are over reacting...if you didn't see this coming after the official game then you are really the most dim witted of individuals. Whats that immortal line again... there is always someone bigger and better than you around the corner... FUMBBL's time is over. May those who have used FUMBBL to lord over the game begone and the game get back to its roots, real life gaming where you actually need to look into the eyes of your opponent. Bye FUMBBL! Yours Truly, OneEye :D |
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Re: Games Workshop letter
by EtherealWolf on Nov 12, 2009 - 02:43 (User info | Send a message) http:// |
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As much as this sucks I am going to go the other way on this one.... So although this might not mean the end of FUMBBL, it certainly does mean that they DO in fact have quite a few legs to stand on, legally. Games Workshop will laugh at Christer if he tries to come to some sort of agreement with them. Here are the some reasons why: 1) There is now a (completely Games Workshop endorsed) Blood Bowl video game available. (Christer I was once a regular attendee to this website, but after I heard about the new Blood Bowl game I wondered how long it would take for this to happen). 2) They've decided to NOT take legal action, which is very considerate. These guys know how to play ball (pardon the pun) and I seriously doubt we as users could scrounge up enough money to put up any sort of defense. 3) The fact that you've taken money in running this site can only make things worse - because that money should in some form or another have gone to Games Workshop. They'd look to recover some, if not all, of the proceedings. Would it not be possible to get the more computer literate users to help you re-design fumbbl as a whole? Should the GW come looking again, they could only compare it to Blood Bowl, but not have reason to pursue legal action. It'd be your own design - to which YOU could then take on intellectual property! Take it from someone who knows a little bit about how the big boys like to play. Also, remember Metallica vs Napster, remember iiNet and remember Pirate Bay, all of which are copyright cases. Copyright is a great thing, but when you infringe upon it "I didn't realise I was doing it" won't stand up in a court of law. I only view this website now, but don't play. Having said that I think you've got a great thing going on here. Please do the regular fumbble fans and yourself a favour - find a workaround. If you can't - ask everyone else and see if they can. Games Workshop need those few things addressed, so address them. Tell them you will remove all Games Workshop related content. Make sure you throw in there that some of the fumbbl fans are, nay WERE, regular attendees to the hobby centres around the world and aren't too happy about how this was handled. In my opinion you weren't hurting anyone, but like I said I've given you three half-reasonable arguments they can come back with should you wish to take no action on this letter. To you and all of the regular fumbblers - good luck. |
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Re: Games Workshop letter
by virage on Nov 12, 2009 - 02:55 (User info | Send a message) |
| This is an online bloodbowl league not a copyright infringement. |
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Re: Games Workshop letter
by Krusty810 on Nov 12, 2009 - 02:55 (User info | Send a message) |
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This is the end Beautiful friend This is the end My only friend, the end Of our elaborate plans, the end Of everything that stands, the end No safety or surprise, the end I'll never look into your eyes...again Can you picture what will be So limitless and free Desperately in need...of some...stranger's hand In a...desperate land. Huh, that was against another intellectual property right. If this is the end, thank you Christer. I am finished with GW. If there is a way out, let me know and I will do/sign whatever I can. |
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Re: Games Workshop letter
by odi on Nov 12, 2009 - 02:59 (User info | Send a message) http:// |
| I think we've known all these years that this might happen. I dont want to start guessing what the end result is gonna be, since it could be anything between fumbbl closing to wording/pics changed in the client/site. But anyway it's been a good fun for the past 6 years. |
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Re: Games Workshop letter
by Psilocybe on Nov 12, 2009 - 03:00 (User info | Send a message) http://http:// |
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i once in my youth made a game somewhat like this, but had never heard of BB before that i called it pig deffender, cause the ball was a pig´s head and i had some other rules for the game. i think we can pretty much do the same here like some other people have said. Make some changes to the rules and call then something else than lrb - etc etc, call the game a new name, Knuckle Busters is a suggestion or just something else than BB, no pics related to GW or BB in the client etc, and make a new client with some modifications, i think all in all this should do the trick and GW cant come hunting for you again, for the name of the site keep Fumbbl and make the bb stand for saomthing else or nothing at all ! all depending on the laws of where the sever is standing ( the country etc ) if things like this is taken care of then they should not be able to touch fumbbl ever again.... Oh yeah.. somebody should write GW and ask them excactly what needs to be changed according to their laws that way they cant say anything. and if they dont want to tell you what needs to be changed, im pretty sure they give up they´r rights to drag you to court ( better make sure in your area of the world before doing that :D ) |
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Re: Games Workshop letter
by f_alk on Nov 12, 2009 - 03:07 (User info | Send a message) http:// |
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So: [quote] Specifically, our causes for concern are that: * the Website contains copies of Blood Bowl statistics and rules; * tje Java Bowl programme contains various pieces of GW Blood Bowl art including the Blood Bowl pitch and Blood Bowl logo; and * the Java Bowl programme uses all the Blood Bowl rules and statistics for each model.[/quote] and [quote] Therefore, we would be grateful if within fourteen days of the date of this letter you would procide written undertakings, in a form acceptable to us, that you: 1. have received and understood the contents of this letter: 2. will cease and desist from any activities which infringes GW's intellectual property rights; 3. remove the Java Bowl link, and any materials subject to GW's copyright, from your site; and 4. confirm by return that you will not infringe GW's intellectual property rights at any time in the future.[/quote] So.... write them that you do so. Point (3) just says that you have will remove (it doesn't say "have removed") everything critical, and the link to the client is actually killing two of their concerns of the start. The first concern might take a bit longer - but they have given NO TIMESCALE of when you need to have finished it ;). |
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Re: Games Workshop letter
by Arktoris on Nov 12, 2009 - 03:10 (User info | Send a message) http:// |
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Dear Christer, You've received a letter telling you what GW's interpretation of the Swedish copyright laws are and their interpretation of what you are in violation of. I understand fumbbl is a pet project for you and if it's too much hassle and money...it should close down. However, should you enjoy this site enough to press on, please ask for donations for a lawyer consultant. NEVER take the opening letter at face value. Lawyers are notorious for being liberal and grandios in what they think the law is in favor. If a lawyer is consultated and says they are within their rights...so be it. Otherwise, unless their is a threat of jail time or tort, why not go to court? Worse thing that could happen is a judge agrees with them and you have to comply anyway. and that's assuming they're willing to spend the money and risk taking you to court. as I 've stated in the forums, I've received two such letters in my life. Complied with neither...and nothing bad happened. Bottomline: this is not a business you run...but a league. And any league has the right to use bloodbowl images, statistics, names, rules etc. with or without buying from GW. |
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Re: Games Workshop letter
by Dynamix on Nov 12, 2009 - 03:25 (User info | Send a message) |
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I have been expecting something like this since the Cyanide BB game and here it is . Hope a workaround can be sorted to save a great site and what has become a regular past-time for me over the last 10 Months . I had already purchased my last GW products some time ago so cant use that threat . Though I understand GW's position , doesnt mean I have to accept that its fair |
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Re: Games Workshop letter
by Zombie69 on Nov 12, 2009 - 03:30 (User info | Send a message) http://http:// |
| You should offer them to pay a modest sum for license of their product. If they don't mind Fumbbl as long as it doesn't put their trademarks in jeopardy, they might even accept to do this for 1$/year or something, just to clear up the legal issues. |
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Re: Games Workshop letter
by Araznaroth on Nov 12, 2009 - 03:32 (User info | Send a message) http:// |
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It had to come:( Hope there's away to keep Fumbbl alive. |
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Re: Games Workshop letter
by eisen on Nov 12, 2009 - 04:23 (User info | Send a message) http:// |
| I did this just a short while ago. Called their customer service number 1-800-394-4263 asked right for a manager and explained that I was torqued. Naturally they couldn't do anything about it, and said the would foward the complaint to the legal department, but if we all did this and jammed their phones with complaints, it would get their attention |
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Re: Games Workshop letter
by Flix (test@test.de) on Nov 12, 2009 - 04:26 (User info | Send a message) http://http:// |
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[quote] your website, www.fumbbl.com [/quote] the side wont have server called www |
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Re: Games Workshop letter
by Nighteye on Nov 12, 2009 - 05:40 (User info | Send a message) http://squidkitten.com |
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Hmm I wonder why the donation button wasn't mentioned. It was one of the main excuses for shutting down TBB. I could understand all this legal stuff if bloodbowl was actually a game still actively supported by GW. This seems extremely petty and shortsighted. Still feels like the best way to go about it is to shut down the site and reopen in January. GW knows quite well that it would be near impossible to live up to their demands and still maintain a functioning site. |
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Re: Games Workshop letter
by Frankenstein on Nov 12, 2009 - 06:16 (User info | Send a message) |
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I think this might be a political problem primarily. Intellectual property (if such a thing exists in the first place, which I doubt) rights need to be altered massively. I certainly know which party I will support in the future and recommend you landlubbers to go aboard as well. FUMBBL ahoy! |
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Re: Games Workshop letter (possible solutions)
by lawman on Nov 12, 2009 - 06:31 (User info | Send a message) http://http:// |
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Not sure if this would help but here are my thoughts: 1) Advertize on our main page where to buy GW Rulebooks for Bloodbowl. Get someone at GW to authorize this and back the advertizement. Offer the advertizement for a price, but if they reject, free. 2) Remove all rulebook references. Including in the team help page. Enforce these rules by making sure no one posts GW based rulebook based data (except maybe in forums when people have general quick questions) 3) All stats? Well they should remain such as 6/3/3/8 because in general to run a league the player pages have that data on it. 4) Get with ski-junkie to fix client: a) remove players stats from client. Player name only shown. b) remove all pictures that or GW artwork. 5) Ask GW for a timeframe to get the client fixed. These are my thoughts for working with GW. I think GW needs to send a more specific guideline. First thing is to touch base with them and notify them of the recieving the letter late. Larry |
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Re: Games Workshop letter
by DDogwood on Nov 12, 2009 - 08:20 (User info | Send a message) http:// |
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It would probably be worth consulting a lawyer on this. I can understand their opposition to the use of the Blood Bowl name, which is trademarked, and their copyrighted art, like the pitch, logo, and so on. I call BS on the rules and statistics bit, though. Unless they have a patent on the game rules (which they don't), they have absolutely no right to stop us from using them. You'd need someone to paraphrase the rules, to avoid copyright infringement, but I believe that the game mechanics themselves are public domain. Javabowl uses a different expression of the rules than the official rulebook, because the official rulebook isn't written in Java, so it just needs to lose the copyrighted art. You might have to rename the Skaven to "Ratmen" or something, because I think Skaven is a GW trademark as well, but that's about it. Of course, I'm not a lawyer, which is why you should hire one. I'm sure that there are plenty of us who would be willing to donate funds for this. |
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Re: Games Workshop letter
by KhorneliusPraxx on Nov 12, 2009 - 08:44 (User info | Send a message) http:// |
| I guess if there is no way around this you can make the site more exclusive. You can turn the site into a PRIVATE CLUB. Any non-members that stroll into the main page should just get a blank page asking them to log in or get lost. You would get no new members that way but the rest of us would still be here. I guess a new system for allowing us members to bring new people in could be established but that would be it. |
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Re: Games Workshop letter
by Wotfudboy on Nov 12, 2009 - 09:01 (User info | Send a message) http://http:// |
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Just sent an email to: orders@games-workshop.co.uk which is their Customer Service email address. Probably the wrong address but I felt I had to send something! Dear Games Workshop, Your systematic clamping down of the online Blood Bowl fanbase is one I nor many other Blood Bowl coaches support in any way whatsoever. Remember, ultimately we are your customers, you are a business... don't bite the hand that feeds you! Games Workshop has run the risk of alienating a large chunk of its loyal customer base so completely that the whole thing could snow ball and really impact on your sales. If you succeed in the killing off of the online Blood Bowl community, leaving us nothing other than that pathetic Cyanide title, then I hope we hit back at where it hurts... your profit margins! Yours soooo sincerely it hurts, Wotfudboy |
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Re: Games Workshop letter
by Scratch on Nov 12, 2009 - 09:26 (User info | Send a message) http:// |
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What a day to choose to come back to Fumbbl...... The Cyanide games have been nothing but buggy and frustrating, the ds version is almost unplayable. I hope that games workshop can see that this keeps the game alive, with no cost or effort from them. I wouldn't be playing bloodbowl today if it wasn't for here. Can someone form an online petition and give us at least something to do |
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Re: Games Workshop letter
by Idolen on Nov 12, 2009 - 09:37 (User info | Send a message) http:// |
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Dont see any reason to panic just yet.... One of the great things about Sweden is that you have 1 hour free of charge consultation time with a lawyer if you need one. ( Me think we do ) Another thing that I know from my work with the union is that there is a legal term you can use if someone tells you that youve done wrong. If a person have done one thing in a certain way for a long time, then thats the to do it. He might have to change it if a NEW rule or law comes up but not before that. In that retrospect I think Christer can win a lawsuit from GW simply on basis that they've known about this for so long time and done nothing so now its to late to act. Had they acted for six years ago they might have had a case but now I'm not so sure... May Fumbbl live forever! |
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Re: Games Workshop letter
by BudSpencer on Nov 12, 2009 - 10:54 (User info | Send a message) http:// |
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I think it might help if Christer would know how money can be expected, if he asks for some money regarding support for the payments for layers. I think we could really give some good money. E.g. 10€ from 1000 users = 10 000 €. -i think that would help for some time. Please vote here http://fumbbl.com/index.php?name=PNphpBB2&file=viewtopic&t=17260 |
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Re: Games Workshop letter
by haari (lolo) on Nov 12, 2009 - 11:09 (User info | Send a message) http://haari.wordpress.com |
| we all can send mail's to gw! |
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Re: Games Workshop letter
by lawman on Nov 12, 2009 - 11:16 (User info | Send a message) http://http:// |
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Some more thought... How does the NFL handle copyright infringement? I mean with such a huge fanbase... But I see where some of the problem lies. The money for GW is made in book sales, minatures, and games I suppose it would be best to find out how you can assist in those sales, as well as make sure we do not infringe the rights for playing in the league. I would hope we can continue to use ski-junkie client. It is one of the best Java games I know. Mostly due though to how well thought out the rules are. Obviously GW material... I think they don't really care how much people play the game. Just that they buy the books, games, and especially minatures. If they are profitable (or want to be) anyway. I can recall how much money I've wasted on GW material I didn't use. But here I've spent thousands of hours actually playing the game. But they don't see that money. That is the main issue with GW and how it trys to sell itself. Honestly, their best games could make a lot of money if we had to charge say 50 cents for each game on fumbbl. Shocking I know, but lets be realistic here. |
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Re: Games Workshop letter
by flyor on Nov 12, 2009 - 11:39 (User info | Send a message) |
| games workshop quality control faeled at the cyanide 'so called product'. now cyanide pushes gw to have more cropies (merge crap and copy) sold. funk this! |
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Re: Games Workshop letter
by Ansalon on Nov 13, 2009 - 01:48 (User info | Send a message) http:// |
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This sucks. Hopefully some solution can be found so that FUMBBL stays up and doesn't have to change too much. If this doesn't happen, thanks to everyone for all the great times! (especially Christer of course) Whether I was gang-fouling your star players or spamming /boo during your matches, I thoroughly enjoyed playing all the coaches here on FUMBBL (best online gaming community I've ever seen) |
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Re: Games Workshop letter
by Emeyin on Nov 13, 2009 - 05:09 (User info | Send a message) http://http:// |
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Sigh... but it had to be expected. Hopefully there is a workaround for this. |
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Re: Games Workshop letter
by Forteza on Nov 13, 2009 - 09:02 (User info | Send a message) http://http:// |
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I think this is really bad judgment from GW, I played Bbowl in the middle of the 90s and then I didnt played again untill I found fumbbl.com in 2006. After 2006 I bought the game again along with 6 metal teams, not cheap! Along with the interest of warhammer where I now have 3 armies, thats a massive spending at GW. I dare say that nothing of that would have happened if I had not entered the enviroment of playing GW stuff here on fumbbl. Instead I might have spent my money elsewhere. Bad on you GW for punishing this site exposing your business!!! |
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Re: Games Workshop letter
by luigi on Nov 13, 2009 - 04:19 (User info | Send a message) http://http:// |
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I'm a lawyer, but in spain, and i don't really consider myself expert in copyright laws here as to give advice about other countries laws. Consulting a lawyer is a good idea indeed, and i'll be pleased to donate for such reason. I think it would probably be a good idea to make a game ourselfs, maybe via forum or whatever, i don't think is hard to do something that we will still like and will have no copyright. Still and maybe this is a really stupid question, did anyone ask for GW permision to keep this site as it is? I mean is free, no profit on it, and maybe they could accept the offer to put links to they're online shops or to have some publicity. It could be really good for them to have a happy growing comunity willing to buy their products, instead of a angry comunity blaming them till the end of time. We could all win. |
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Re: Games Workshop letter
by Texan on Nov 13, 2009 - 05:10 (User info | Send a message) http:// |
| GW is basically counting on this not going to court and for those receiving their letters not having the resources to take this to court because they would likely lose. IP law requires that they vigorously defend any infringement when knowledge of such infringement occurs. They have known about this for years and done nothing. It is just a transparent attempt to make it look like they are defending their copyright. |
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Re: Games Workshop letter
by McVily on Nov 13, 2009 - 09:02 (User info | Send a message) http:// |
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Seems like Cyanide Blood Bowl doesn't sell as they hoped it will (maybe fact that it sucks has something with it). It is their right to do this according to copyright laws (which I never liked, and never will as it's to restrictive and are holding progress in certain areas), but It would be worst possible move from their side. I personally would never even know Table Top exists if there weren't for FUMBBL. I don't think they are aware how big this community is, and how much profit they actually gathered because of BloodBowl infested people. (or maybe they know but they are greedy bastards, hmm.. yeah, thats it) Maybe somebody should let them know, as with what they attend to do, they'll do completely opposite, as I'm sure majority of Fumbblers will never buy product from them again cause of this. |
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Monopoly Rights
by PsyPhiGrad on Nov 13, 2009 - 11:25 (User info | Send a message) |
| This is hilarious coming from GW. Most of the ideas that they want to exercise Monopoly Rights (lamely called IP) over, are largely derivative works. To make things even funnier, the latest version of BB is largely a volunteer driven fan-based creation. |
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Re: Games Workshop letter
by Daudy on Nov 14, 2009 - 01:41 (User info | Send a message) |
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I find it sad. They don't seem to understand how websites like this are pretty much the lifeline of these games. This sentence in particular pisses me off, "Despite the presence of a modest disclaimer that GW is unable to accept as not only does it pose a financial risk, but there is the potential for harm to be caused to the GW brand." Finanicial risk and damage caused to the brand? I'd never have even heard of Blood Bowl before if I hadn't come across this website and stupid cease and desease letters like this and general overzealousness damage the "GW Brand" more than anything else. Fine. I'll just go play something else. Screw GW. There's another reason why I'll never buy another model from them again. |
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Re: Games Workshop letter
by Krag_Ironwood on Nov 14, 2009 - 04:30 (User info | Send a message) http:// |
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I have been playing blood bowl for over ten years and been running leagues as well in that time, during that time i have been teaching blood bowl to the new generation of gw players and outsiders, and since that time most of those people have purchased bloodbowl which hasn't been easy in oz. I personnly have 4 copys myself Since i found fumbbl they have been opened up to a wider community of players other than my mates at the my club, i seriously hope this can be sorted out. |
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Re: Games Workshop letter
by Catalyst32 on Nov 14, 2009 - 08:46 (User info | Send a message) http://http:// |
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Guys... this is WINDOW DRESSING. GW doesn't want FUMBBL or any other site to shut down. They are trying to get all of these sites to make an attempt to comply with copyright law so that they can say they tried to defend their copyrights. If GW can show that they TRIED to protect their copyright as far as the law is concerned they will get to KEEP their copyright. That's all they want to do. That's all they are going to do. If we do the minor things they want they will go away and won't bug us again for 10 years. Because if we do what they want they will get what they want. When they get what they want they will leave us alone like they always have. They know that Blood Bowl isn't a huge money maker. They know that FUMBBL is theh best kind of advertisement for Blood Bowl that they can get. Because it is FREE ADVERTISEMENT. Believe me I run 5 small business some in America and some in Canada and I have lived in Socialist countries. Any chance I get to put my company or products in front of people for free I JUMP at the chance. Free publicity is GOLD and GW isn't DUMB. We all LOVE Blood Bowl. But it isn't mainstream among gamers. Blood Bowl doesn't drive the machine at GW. But GW knows that Blood Bowl has potential for making money. GW is trying to increase the revenue off of Blood Bowl using the Cyanide game. Sure... that game SUCKS and GW made a poor decision in having it developed. Sure... GW should have given Christer a MILLION Dollars instead. GW SHOULD be paying Ski Junkie or Kalimar to design their game. Once these copyright issues are settled GW will leave FUMBBL alone. Fumbbl helps spread the word about Blood Bowl. Fumbbl helps give NEW players a taste of the game. Fumbbl helps GW make money off of a game that it BARELY supports on it's own. GW is located in a Socialist country and the rules of commerce are thrown out. If GW was an American company GW would PAY for advertising on FUMBBL. Or at least it SHOULD. GW wouldn't need to pursue it's copyright because through it's advertisements GW could prove that this site is VITAL to it's own existence. GW could assert that allowing FUMBBL to use certain images, words and phrases that fall under it's copyright on this and other sites were required to satisfy their customer base. Christer would be earning a check from this site based on GW advertisements if GW was located in a Capitalist country. And Christer deserves it for what he does selflessly for the good of the community and the game. Would any of us object to Christer making a small sum off of his AWESOME site? I would say NO. Perhaps we would feel different if we didn't know about Christers true motivations about providing access to his site for ALL people with NO compensation for himself. But we DO know about Christer. And I would be all of us wish him everything his heart may desire for his labor. But GW is in England and Capitalist Market Theory does not apply. Fumbbl suffers from this at times but it also THRIVES on this. Because GW is in a Socialist country FUMBBL is going through the wringer of that countries legal minutae. FUMBBL appears to be in danger... but it is not in danger. Englands copyright laws just require GW to do a bit of window dressing to protect it's copyright right now so that it can continue to claim the rights to Blood Bowl. It is that simple. When those laws are satisfied GW will leave us alone again for 10 more years. We are just caught up in jumping through the hoops that the UK says GW must jump through to stay legal. GW doesn't want to damage FUMBBL. They are so grateful that we exist that they created a game with Cyanide to help expand the scope of the game. Sure that game sucks and they SHOULD be paying Ski Junkie or Kalimar instead of Cyanide... but companies make mistakes and GW has made them. But they do Read the rest of this comment... |
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Re: Games Workshop letter
by DarkFalcon on Nov 14, 2009 - 07:24 (User info | Send a message) http://http:// |
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All, While I appreciate the anger expressed on the site directed towards GW, I think we would do well to recognize that this is a legal problem and it will need a legal solution. Although it is worth a try, I do not believe that GW will license BB or come to any sort of agreement with Christer. One reason is that, as mentioned elsewhere, GW seems to need to be seen as actively enforcing copyright as their renewal comes up. What we need is good legal advice on the situation at hand. This should not be particularly difficult to come by. I would find it difficult to believe that luigi is the only lawyer using the site; I also have a background in law. However, neither of us is specialized enough to give a sound legal answer. Because GW is registered in England and Christer is presumably hosting from Sweden I would think this dispute would fall under EU or international copyright law. We need somebody to step forward, in public or in private, who knows a bit more about EU/international copyright law to provide some more informed advice to the community. Again, I would think that a friend of Fumbbl, or a friend of a friend, would know enough to give us all some more to go on, and might even be kind enough to do some preliminary motions pro bono (without pay). I certainly would if I were knowledgeable of EU law certified to practice here! From my own limited experience, I would assume there would be many legal avenues that would allow fumbbl to survive, though we may see the client come down temporarily. The first could simply be to show that Christer is willing to contest the ruling in court, although given GW's investment in Cyanide I would anticipate that they would do more than simply go through the motions. The second would be to see whether there were any defenses available for the practice. The most analogous situation I can think of is with the board game Diplomacy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diplomacy_(game)), which requires seven people and over three hours to complete. Although it is a copyrighted game, many play-by-mail and client-based websites have sprung up to support it. A third might be to have someone else in another legal jurisdiction (where EU law doesn't apply and GW pursuing the claim would become more difficult - China or Barbados come to mind ;) ) bring the client back up. This is because Christer runs a big personal risk if he waits three months and then brings the site up again (Pirate Bay). I'm sure we can think of some more. The bottom line is: Despite Metallica v. Napster and Pirate Bay, file sharing is still here to stay. There are many, many ways around legal action in cyberspace and I trust that some clever people will come up with a solution to this sooner or later. Sorry for the length of this post, but I had just wanted to focus the debate because Christer is no doubt under a lot of stress and will need to act soon. Fumbbl is a great site; I have been using it for years, for no other reason than until very recently I could not find any GAMES WORKSHOP STORES that were hosting Blood Bowl leagues. I would love to see it continue. By all means, Christer, keep the forums and everything else not specifically mentioned in the letter going. The domain name, fumbbl.com, is not itself under attack, so we can keep using this to communicate and throw around ideas. Best, DarkFalcon |
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Re: Games Workshop letter
by Zhluhur (goddamnit@spam.net) on Nov 14, 2009 - 08:32 (User info | Send a message) http://http:// |
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Doh, and it isn't even near the first of april. :/ One thing is for sure. If they force Christer to take down this site, I'll never ever buy anything Games-Workshop related again. This includes miniatures, board games or computer games. This site is a lake of fresh water in the desert of the internet. It helped the Bloodbowl game to stay alive. Without it, I doubt Cyanide could have sold any of many of their Bloodbowl games. I just hope someone at GW takes the time to read though these comments. Regards, Zhluhur |
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the laymans take
by PainState on Nov 14, 2009 - 09:51 (User info | Send a message) http:// |
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So the Letter was sent. Looking at what needs to be done to fullfill their demands it seems easy. #1: Done, just read the letter #2: Kinda of vague but once they tell Christer what is and is not an infringment it should be easy. Now granted I will not be apart of that phone call or e-mail. So for all I know they might say the wholle dang thing is an infringment and then it is tough. But I think they are looking for specific issues on the site, not the entire site. #3: Well this is the big one. It seems they do have a "beef" with the Java Blood Bowl client. So by removing the link in essence Fumbbl is just a stats/league site. We will have to go back to the old fashion manual upload stuff, which will cause some pain but better than the other option. Iam sure Christer will talk about the new 5.0/6.0 client and what can be done to have a play link and not violate IP and Trademarks. Once GW gives the answer then that is what we have to work with. #4: Swear to be a good boy and not violate the IP and Trademarks in the future: Done, because this S.O.P. for Christer from the start. The letter makes it seem the only real problem is the Play link/Java BB and the pictures and various fan added matterial that is either IP or Trademark content. I have faith that in the end Christer will figure it out and we will move on. |
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Re: Games Workshop letter
by Set_Arkos on Nov 15, 2009 - 03:32 (User info | Send a message) http:// |
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Cheers Christer! you have the surport of 1000 behind you, do what ever you feel you must. And danm GW to some other dark dimension for choosing to take this route. I hope this end up hurting them in the long run! What comes around goes around. |
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Re: Games Workshop letter
by MadTias on Nov 15, 2009 - 06:42 (User info | Send a message) http://http:// |
| My heart and mind is with Christer in this dark time. May the love I and others bear for this site inspire in you the will to carry on. I do think the demands can be met. I believe in your ability to find the way to do so. Long live FUMBBL! |
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Re: Games Workshop letter
by Malibu_Jack on Nov 16, 2009 - 05:13 (User info | Send a message) http:// |
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as an ex employee, i know first hand that GW is big on enforcing IP rights as all staff members have to sign a contract waiving such rights (if an employee were to come up with a new model, conversion or rule set GW could legally strip the ownership for said creations from them) I really believe the 'official' BB game by cyanide (apt since the game is pure poison) being released is the core reason for this cheary letter from GW's legal Dept because Gw has know about the excistence of Fumbbl for some time as they have (not sure if they still do) used ingame images from Fumbbl for articles on BB tactics mainly written by one Jarvis Johnson. GW is only doing what it needs to do to survive, people playing BB for free at home aren't playing it in store with a team and board you've bought from GW, it makes perfect business sense to remove this site to force all its users back in to their stores/hobby centres parting with their hard earned cash!! as for all the calls boycott GW, think long and hard about that... if GW goes in to liquidation/ceases to excist the ownership of it copyrights will be sold off and i sincerely doubt the buyers will be as soft as GW have been |
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Re: Games Workshop letter
by Twonky on Nov 18, 2009 - 01:06 (User info | Send a message) |
| I have the board game bought 2 copies since I lost the first. Bought GW minis to create a nurgle team cause the shop didnt have the proper miniatures. played fumbbl got really excited about cyanides version bought it then went back to playing fumbbl cause its better. |
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Re: Games Workshop letter
by Project_Mercy (hot_stuff@deathbowl.org) on Nov 18, 2009 - 08:31 (User info | Send a message) http:// |
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You can't get upset at GW for protecting their IP. That's just a part of business. With the Cyanide client, they've made a good-faith effort to provide an online version of their game (even if it turned out to be poorly implemented). I don't know where the Fumbbl servers exist, but if it's in the US, the answer is pretty easily dealt with. Remove the References to BB and the link to the client. Of course, if a user was to continue to post links to the client on the forums, the safe harbor rule would protect Fumbbl from being at fault as long as they gave a method for GW to ask for the link to be removed.. Of course, given the US, users just keep posting those links up. The real issue is the donations. If you're taking money for something, they can sue you for profiting off their IP. That's an easy suit for them. If they have to prove that you're infringing on their IP or defacing it in some way, that's a long and expensive suit for them which is likely going to result in failure. GW has to be able to prove that they're striving to protect their IP, else they'll lose it. That doesn't mean they actually care about FUMBLL. |
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Re: Games Workshop letter
by Nightbird on Nov 19, 2009 - 12:24 (User info | Send a message) http:// |
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Well this whole deal sucks & unfortunately as others have stated I'm older now & simply don't have the time OR desire to be playing BB in gaming stores or in TT leagues. When I found fumbbl back long ago, when it was really still being born into what it has become, it was a godsend to me, as my love for the game was greater then people around my area & our TT league had collapsed a while back. I myself, will most definately be boycotting GW if this site shuts down as it's my only way to stay connected to my favorite game of all time & GW causing it's demise will have raised great ire within me. Yes, they will only be missing out on a few dollars here & there, but standing up for what you believe in always makes a statement no matter how small it may seem. Raise your fumbbl flags folks & stand up for what you believe in!!! |
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Re: Games Workshop letter
by Trollbreath on Nov 19, 2009 - 12:25 (User info | Send a message) |
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Hey Christer My lovely wife is a Swedish lawyer trained in Lund even though we now live in Sydney Australia. She says close the site and save our marriage! Haha just joking, she knows Blood Bowl is there with food and shelter in the hierarchy of needs. Seriously though, she suggests UK law although based on common law etc and Swedish law based on Civil, GW copywrite will be enforceable in Sweden. So imperative you get solid legal advice to protect yourself. Best of luck - clearly the FUMBBLers here are happy to back you. |
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Re: Games Workshop letter
by CastroGiovanni on Nov 20, 2009 - 01:10 (User info | Send a message) http://http:// |
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Personally glad to see it happen - fumbbl has little in common with Blood Bowl in terms of how it works and the people who have put it together have pretty much sucked all the fun out of the game and it reduced it to crunching numbers. The engine has always be questionable as well, and as has recently been revealed, there are too many ways to cheat the system. Good riddance and well played Games Workshop. The official game is a lot closer to the Blood Bowl experience than this garbage. |
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Re: Games Workshop letter
by Dakari-mane on Nov 24, 2009 - 01:05 (User info | Send a message) http:// |
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Well that sucks. After 5 years of non-BB playing I discovered Fumbbl & started playing again & had a cracking time. About 3 months ago I started buying/making teams again & got all my friends playing the table top version, some have now even started playing the new BB game online. This is all down to Fumbbl without this site I'd never have started playing again & GW would never have got their hands on our hard earned. Another screw you to GW's fan base by GW. Own goal fail! My money shall be saved for other retailers from now on as will that of my friends if I can convince them. Dan |
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Re: Games Workshop letter
by WildAnimal on Nov 25, 2009 - 08:59 (User info | Send a message) http://www.bricksite.com/survival |
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tomorrow its 14 days the letter was put on FUMBBL. Anyone know if the site close or what tomorrow? Hope not |
