Posted by Jokaero on 2018-10-31 15:31:48
I think these are all valid points. Maybe you could turn a blind eye starting in the semi-final stage. There's not much domino effect potential anymore and I assume people would love to see these games.. I know I do.
Posted by Gary_Gygax on 2018-10-31 18:45:00
Definitely, all good points for first rounds.
For semifinals and Final obviously it wont apply, especially because coaches involved on it will surely be available to play somehow :)
Posted by bancobat on 2018-10-31 18:51:55
Thx for the feedback.
To be sure, the 22.00 deadline each Wednesday is for game to start ou to finish ?
In both case I would find cool that the deadline was moved to 23.59, meaning we know we have the whole Wednesday to play, sometimes games are scheduled quite late (bbtime) and the fact that is 22.00 sometimes make the last Wednesday a dead potential day.
Posted by Tricktickler on 2018-10-31 19:25:48
Why not allow up to two days extension as a norm? If there is a strict line between two and three days there won't be any favouritism.
Posted by Tricktickler on 2018-10-31 19:28:46
bancobat: yeah, if the deadline is 22:00 on Wednesday and this is gonna be strict from now on that means Wednesday is a wasted potential day to play for many Europeans since many can only play in the evening.
Posted by Seventyone on 2018-10-31 19:37:49
Surely just means Wednesday is more likely to be available for the next round?
Posted by Tricktickler on 2018-10-31 19:53:02
The less restrictions on times to play the more available times to play.
Posted by Throweck on 2018-10-31 20:15:22
Remember we are not just talking about one game here. It’s multiple.
Posted by Throweck on 2018-10-31 20:55:35
Also, I agree about the semis and finals.
If I was to allow an extra 2/3 days then I may as well just increase the deadline, no point to it.
I understand that it can be difficult to schedule games but a deadline is a deadline.
If you have started to play before the deadline, fair enough from now.
Posted by Tricktickler on 2018-10-31 21:13:37
Let's call Wednesday between round 1 and round 2 WednesdayA and Wednesday between round 2 and round 3 WednesdayB.
Let's say that it is round 2 and that one of the coaches involved can only play late evenings.
Let's assume that the deadline is 00:00 Wednesday.
That means there is a 6/7 chance that WednesdayA is available (since there is a 1/7 chance that the coaches before them chose to play their game that date).
Thu, Fri, Sat, Sun, Mon, Tue and WednesdayB will also be available.
The total amount of available days are 7+6/7
Now let's say instead that there is a strict deadline at 22:00.
That means that WednedayA is guaranteed to be available.
Thu, Fri, Sat, Sun, Mon and Tue will also be available but not WednesdayB since that would pass the deadline.
The total amount of available days are 7.
There is a 6/7 chance that an available day to play is lost by having a strict deadline at 22:00 for those Europeans who can only play late evening.
Posted by Throweck on 2018-10-31 21:33:14
It’s always been 22.00. Always.
If I moved the time, surely that would then affect coaches somewhere else who can only play at those times. Are you one of these said coaches Trick?
Posted by Tricktickler on 2018-10-31 21:50:06
If no extensions are given all coaches have exactly 7 days to complete the game. If 2 days extension can be given coaches will have between 7-9 days to complete the game depending on if the coaches before them used the extension or not. So in some cases if you are unlucky you will only have 7 days to complete the game but in most cases you will have up to 9 days (where the last two days shouldn't be used unless it's absolutely necessary). In no case you will have less than 7 days so it can't really hurt to allow up to two days extension as far as I can see.
Just my opinions if you don't mind.
Posted by Throweck on 2018-10-31 21:53:34
I don’t mind at all. But all that is doing is extending the game to a 9 day deadline.
Posted by Sweep12121 on 2018-10-31 21:57:08
Always worth a shout out to all the FUMBBL admins on threads like this - I think you guys all do a great job and keep everything running along great. Thanks for all the extra curricular work involved in making this site a great place to play around on!
Posted by Throweck on 2018-10-31 22:01:24
What would happen is that people would see it as a 9 day deadline even if you insisted on it being played in 7.
A wise man once said to me (about 10 minutes ago)...'deadline is a deadline'
And please understand that the reason for this blog is to make sure my approach is as fair to everyone as possible. Giving extensions for some and not others would be unfair. Someone gets a two day extension, that means the next oppo has only 5 days. They would want an extension which dominos. Then the whole tornament is out of sync.
7 days is plenty in my opinion.
It is also very clear in the tournament rules.
Posted by Tricktickler on 2018-10-31 22:13:11
No, 9 day deadlines is not the same thing as 7 day deadlines with 2 days extension.
A 5 round tournament of the first type will take a maximum of 9*5=45 days to complete. A 5 round tournament of the second type will take a maximum of 7*5+2 = 37 days to complete so obviously it can't be the same thing.
Extensions just means more flexibility for people to find a time to play. Only if you are unlucky and plays right after someone has used the extension (which should be less than 1/9 since most people would try to avoid it) you will have as little as 7 days to complete the game which isn't less than if there were no extensions at all.
Posted by Throweck on 2018-10-31 22:16:06
Ok, well let's put it like this.
Deadline is 22.00 on Wednesdays as per tournament rules.
Posted by Malmir on 2018-10-31 22:23:07
Your Maths assumes only one extension deadline gets used for the whole tournament Tricktickler, which is frankly cobblers.
Posted by Throweck on 2018-10-31 22:27:48
I am aware that this has made me public enemy number 1 for some of you.
However, it's my role. Therefore, please try and get your games in within the 7 day time frame.
If you had to admin and go through the vast amounts of pm threads and remember who had asked for this extension and that extension, who had made claims that the other coach has been difficult on purpose, etc. it would be tiresome. It is tiresome. Which is why the deadline is as it is.
I repeat, this is not me trying to be a douche, it's about setting a fair playing field for all.
It's also great content for the Podcast :)
Posted by Kondor on 2018-10-31 22:28:05
I agree with Throweck. Allowing a two day extension is the same as having a 9 day window to play rather than 7.
By the way, it is 22:20 and no one has dropped the hammer yet.
Posted by Throweck on 2018-10-31 22:30:13
You will find i have :P
Posted by Tricktickler on 2018-10-31 23:28:56
Malmir I don't know if you are trolling or if my english is very bad but I'll give you an example which hopefully will make it easier to understand:
Tournament starts on Wednesday.
Round 1: coaches have 7 days to complete the game ordinary time. 9 days if you include extension. Let's say that they use the extension and complete it on Friday next week.
Round 2: now the coaches have only 5 days to complete the game ordinary time. 7 days if you include the extension. Let's say they complete it on Monday.
Round 3: now the coaches have 9 days to complete the game ordinary time (since the guys before them completed their game so early). 11 days if you include the extension. Let's say the need all 11 days and use the extension and completes it on next Friday.
As you can see the extension was used several times. One time in round 1 and one time in round 3.
Of course if everyone use the extension in every round then everyone will only have 7 days to complete the game (except in the first round where they will have 9 days). But in reality everyone will not always use the extension. Since there are more days that are not extension than days that are extension the probability that the extension will be used is quite small (especially if also take into account that people will do their best to avoid using it). Therefore most of the time, but not always, 9 days to play will be possible for those who really need it.
Posted by Tricktickler on 2018-10-31 23:42:08
No you will not be seen as public enemy number one. Everyone knows that it is I that will be looked at it. Look at US universities what happens nowadays if people express their opinions. And on fumbbl people has always been disliked for not agreeing with everything that an admin says.
Anyway, I truly appreciate your aim to be fair and unbiased and your work with the tournament scene.
Posted by Throweck on 2018-10-31 23:45:41
So what happens when a coach in the final misses out because they are on vacation and would have been around if the final had been in the schedule set out but the other finalist has been held up because of extensions?
Rare scenario granted but possible.
Take the qualifiers. The Finals run directly from the end of them. Is it fair to hold up the other qualifying brackets because one bracket used extensions?
You are thinking from a singular coach point of view, I have to look at the whole tournament.
Posted by Throweck on 2018-10-31 23:48:29
Don't get me wrong, extensions would be peachy but not practicle. Also, I see nothing wrong with discussion.
Posted by Malmir on 2018-11-01 07:46:32
I see what you mean Tricktickler and I don't troll - much better things to do with my time. Where I don't agree with you is where the nine days gets used first round but then second round coaches are expected to complete in 5 (or seven with the extra 2 days). That would just open a whole can of worms for coaches who completed promptly in the first round but then struggle to schedule in the 2nd round as for them there is no extension really as, at best, they are getting just the 7 days. This would be particularly problematic if you were going away towards the end of the second week but think, ah it's okay as I can play any time in the first four days of week 2. By the first week extending, they have now lost two of those days. Sorry but I just don't think it would work in practice.
Posted by Tricktickler on 2018-11-01 14:11:31
Okay, I don't think the number of games played will be maximized by lowering the maximum number of available days from 9 to 7.
Posted by Tricktickler on 2018-11-01 14:13:11
Another problem is also that forfeiting games on Wednesday and subjectively giving one of the coaches the win based on a subjective investigation will lead to more biased decisions (not saying that admins do a bad job) than simply allowing them some extra days to finish the game naturally. The less subjective decisions the better if you want to maximize fairness and objectivity.
But of course if you think that less games will be forfeited by not allowing extensions then of course it will just be better.
Also if two teams haven't played by the deadline I think it would actually be less administrative work to just give them 2 days extra days and hope that they play the game instead of starting an investigation on who deserves the win. If they play the game that investigation doesn't have to be made. But I have no experience in tournament administration so it's possible there are things I'm not aware of of course.
Posted by Throweck on 2018-11-01 15:11:34
It’s the finding the thread in multitude of messages, filtering through reasons, etc.
Also, if there is no clear result on who to forfeit a roll is made in discord in front of witnesses as to who will forfeit.
Posted by Tricktickler on 2018-11-02 01:26:20
Anyway, just tried to provide some good advice for the site although my opinions felt kind of unwanted. Maybe it would have been a better idea to post them in my own blog or just kept them for myself.
Posted by Throweck on 2018-11-02 14:20:27
I never once said your opinions are unwanted. I just can't see how it would work/benefit the tournament. No hard feelings from me Trick :)