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Wreckage
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2013-11-28 17:03:53
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2012

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2011

2011-12-04 14:59:48
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2011-11-17 16:17:40
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2011-06-01 14:04:38
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2009

2009-04-28 19:21:04
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2009-01-16 14:20:25
rating 3.7
2011-11-17 16:17:40
22 votes, rating 3.5
Hard and Soft Rules
I remember when I was called to the admin channel for the first time in a private matter a couple of month ago because I had insulted my opponent.
The truth is I swear quite often and rely on my opponent to not report me.

In this case the reason why I was swearing at him was because I got disconnected from the game and when I rejoined I had only 15 seconds left and he timed me out.
I considerd this to be in violation of the rules but wouldn't bother with it because i knew the client didn't save anyways and a swearing and expression of very disconsent seemed like the proper and unburocratic response. Well, he did report me.

So I stated my case to the administration and they told me I should suck it up, the client would be not yet finished and promise to not swear anymore at people. There were no consequences for him.

I was moaning about it a bit in the forums and a bit later the administration made a statement that they would not tolerate disconnected people being timed out anymore (they put it like they never tolerated it although they clearly did).

Now today I have much more certaincy when it comes to that. I know when my opponent doesnt respond, if he is absent and doesn't react if anything thelike is happening I'm not supposed to time him out according to the rules.
I guess I should be glad about it but why does this whole thing like all soft rules just make me feel really itchy?
Why don't I feel justice is being served?

For the most part I guess there just happens to be a button. My undersstanding would be that it requires very extreme and exceptional cases to make it improper to use the button. Fumbbl does the opposite. It states: Only if your opponent is not absent you are allowed to use it = only if you know your opponent isn't absent you are allowed to use it. Now thats a huge problem. Because how am I supposed to know if my opponnet is thinking or spending 2 minutes in the kitchen?

The fumbbl policy in fact promotes a view that the button wich is THERE is NOT supposed to be used. Now that is a problem not because of the rules in the rulebook about timeing somebody out but because of the genereally soft charakter of the fumbbl rules.

Now I could go into technical aspects like: If i disconnected from a game I have to rejoin and leave visible traces what makes it easy for a coach to react on hard standarts but the line between being slow and being absent is very blurry.

One of the probably biggest differences between the rules in the LRB and the rules on fumbbl is that the rulebook almost exclusivly uses hard rules while the site almost exclusivly uses soft rules.
Now there are pro's and con's to both systems but let me evaluate a bit.

Why blurry lines at all?
Blurry lines are good to make things ethical. Everything becomes a matter of common sense and taste and emphasy. Soft and blurry lines are much less volunarble to abuse then hard rules, because instead of edges and shapes you just have a thick fog wich you are not supposed to enter. A gaming site is about having fun and not taking things too serious. By setting different standarts it's accomplished that the majority can play in peace and the worst offenders are removed.

Why hard lines?
Hard Lines are unethical. They are not a matter of morale. They state what can be done and what can't without being judgemental. It may be appealing to have rules based on ethics but it becomes less appealing when it's not your own ethics you have to live up to but someone elses. How often have you read a site rule and cried out in surprise of an interpretation from the side of the administration, realising you have enterd the fog of unclearity. That doesn't necessarily mean that you broke a rule but it means that you are at risk to do so.
Bloodbowl is a sport and sports are about winning. Winning you accomplish by reading the rules and looking for the best way to take them to your advantage.

If in a sports competition it is not just about winning a game but winning a lot of games in a larger sceme, the environment of the game becomes part of another and larger game. The game doesn't stop off the pitch. Strong teams win and weak teams lose. That is part of the way the game is designed. For some people it is unethical to pay attention to these things. For others it's unethical to pay attention to stalling.

I have my own fair share of things I consider unethical. But if somebody presents me with the question I often realise that most of my ethical views have no real foundation other then I'd maybe prefer the game to be in a different way then it is.

The fog of uncertaincy doesn't remove abuse of the system. It removes the worst offenders and less worse offenders take their place. The bravest bender of rules without actually breaking them becomes the one with the biggest advantage.

The most honest coach, the one who stays out of the fog entirely ends up with huge disadvantages.
A honest coach who cares about winning will essentially be dealing with a lot of disappointment about what other people do and how unethical they are.
The result is: The system of soft rules creates what it tries to avoid:
Some people push things further then others because they have guts or the understandings or the courage to press things to their limits and they will take other people by surprise and they will upset them. And if the administration gets confronted with these cases they will do 90% of the time nothing and call it fair game and if you are going to ask them if you can do it too, they will tell you that if you feel like something is illegal it probably is.

It's the way of people with little morale telling people with a real concious to get in line and shut up or to out themselves as the bad people so that corruption and brotherly favorism can thrive. That's the very core of soft rules that will grow to get infested by favorism the longer an establishment exists without critizsm. From of this derives the duty of every citizen to remain vigilant towards the system and to never take a statement from their side for granted. And the less tranparent the system the bigger the need to doubt.

The more clear, upright straight and honest a system is, it leaves nobody at a disadvantage. Hard rules are more volunarable to flaws in their own design and such design flaws can be abused on mass. A consquence can be a reduction of diversity and ultimately this can make the game one sided and less pleasant but in it's emotionles way of proceeding it's also peacefull and pleasant because it allows people to explore the game to its full extent without worries about the 'what if'.
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Comments
Posted by happygrue on 2011-11-17 17:01:16
Great blog! I'm still digesting it, but you make some interesting points.
Posted by harvestmouse on 2011-11-17 17:09:43
Well I see your point, however you aren't really involved with the mechanics of dealing with these issues.

Firstly let's look at the problem you had. Now I haven't looked at the log, so I don't know the exact issue, however I am aware of the issue at large.

The rules we have, we know how they work and how to deal with breaches of the rules. Your situation though (must have been more than 3 months ago) was a new issue with a new client. Before it was reported, we had no idea it was an issue, once it became an issue, it then took some review for a ruling to become official on it. So yes, before we knew how to deal with it, your case may have been dealt with differently to know, as simply we didn't know the issue existed. Swearing at your opponent though (if that's what you did) is a known rule by you, me and your opponent, so you received a slapped wrist for it. It's unfortunate, but changes in software bring new issues.

So this brings up the other point, (which the above issue is part of) cloudy grey areas. The rules in some cases maybe vague or cloudy (this is because situations are different and gives us the opportunity to view them for what they are, an individual case). However the admin stance isn't cloudy, grey, vague or wishywashy. Everything is logged. You send a ticket, it's there for us to look at. You are involved in an issue, it's there for us to look at. There are no 'Well he's a good egg I'll let him off' or 'He's always causing trouble, let's just hammer him' style approach. We log everything, any favourtism would be spotted.

So, your opponent times you out when he shouldn't. We advise both involved of the rules. Then a log is made on both of your profiles. We now see no reason for either of you to break that rule again. As for the game, well we would let you both agree with some way to continue and finish it or cancel the game. This is an area where soft rules, pay. Nobody gets punished, and the game may continue if at all possible. We get a lot of satisfaction from situations like this, where everyone goes away satisfied and happy. Because there was no 'you have broken rule 7.a, you will receive a 3 day ban' style approach.

However if either of you were to comeback for breaking the same rule, this is when we get tough. We have logs, to prove you know the rules, know how they work and how you should work with them.

This has been highlighted in a few high profile cases recently. Coaches not abiding to a rule, been warned and advised on how to change, and then being caught again. Also on top of this, being caught again and again doing something, the punishments get tougher and tougher. Why? because it's all logged, we have when you broke the rule, and the punishment applied. Punishments never decrease (unless the breach wasn't as bad as before).

So what am I saying.........The rules do change and sometimes the interpretation changes, (as the site and blodbowl rules change). However, we are aware of this, and everyone is given a fair warning, for these interpretation rule breaches. However after once, we know you are aware of our interpretation, and we expect you to stay within the rules and certainly wouldn't allow the same thing to happen again.
Posted by pythrr on 2011-11-17 17:27:22
why has everyone gone so EMO?
Posted by Gromrilram on 2011-11-17 17:54:22
The more clear, upright straight and honest a system is, it leaves no space for errors. it punishes the guy who intentionally drops just as hard as the guy with a bad connection. Hard rules are more vulnerable to flaws in their own design and such design rules can not be covered 100% on a volunteer run site, as the amount of coaches is just so much higher. A consequence can be a reduction of diversity and ultimately this make the game one sided and less pleasant and in it´s emotionless way of proceeding its on top of that not leaving any space for errors on you side, its unforgiving, therefor works for coaches who know 100% what they are doing just fine, whilst the new or unexperienced players suffer greatly and might get sared away, leaving the old ones on their own, drowning the fumbbl comunity.
Posted by shusaku on 2011-11-17 20:21:13
I think fumbbl is a great community. And I havent had any issues with admin decisions. I think most issues can be judged correctly and better (from an ethical point of view) without hard rules. The tourneys have no real world impact so even if something goes wrong it doesnt hurt much.
I think the job of an admin is more rewarding, when you can take decisions, that you think are right from an ethical point of view; rather than taking a decision, that you have the feeling is somehow wrong, but the rules overrule ethics.
Basically I am very happy that there are admins. And I am willing to let them do their work how they think its best and more so because I think they are doing quite a good job. I have the feeling that switching to hard rules wherever possible is a risk. A risk to lose admins. And a risk to change the community more towards a rules lawyering attitude. I think the community is working fine. And I would not be willing to take that risk.
Posted by awambawamb on 2011-11-17 23:23:10
I'm thinking about a line of self-sacrificing. If your opponent is doing some dirty tricks, disconnect/reconnect, and some unusual things, just concede. The little brat will get what he can't find in life, WINNING, and you'll be ready to play another good match against a good coach. personally, aside from disconnections due to Windows issues, I'll always be able to play. without disconnections. without breaking the 4:00 time limit.
Posted by Gromrilram on 2011-11-18 01:26:39
"I think the job of an admin is more rewarding, when you can take decisions, that you think are right from an ethical point of view; rather than taking a decision, that you have the feeling is somehow wrong, but the rules overrule ethics."


great point
Posted by pythrr on 2011-11-18 10:15:21
" If your opponent is doing some dirty tricks, disconnect/reconnect, and some unusual things, just concede."

Um, no. This only encourages the bastiges.
Posted by Were_M_Eye on 2011-11-18 12:01:37
To sum it up, you can break a rule until the admins spot you, then you have to behave :D
Posted by Wreckage on 2011-11-18 12:26:24
just some clarifications there:
@harvest I give you that you have clear rules but the point is that they are only clear to you. It speaks for the quality of your organisation that you put some self bound controll there on yourselves and thats great. And thats all.

@grom a hard system leaves margin for error. It just has to be good. It can't afford to be bad and if it is it will have to adapt what it necessarily does under the pressure of the public eye. A soft system is hardly adaptable because it isn't available to critizism. And before an admin says now: They do discuss the rules - I believe there can be a conflict of interest.
And please don't confuse rules with consequences for breaking them.

@wereMeye I wonder where you get this point from. To sum it up: Soft rules just suck. Namely the 'noncompetetive play' rule, the 'strive for 11 players rule', the 'concession rules' and the 'time out rule' all suffer from the same inherent problem. And that problem isn't solved because the admins tell you to stop because afterwards you will be as smart as before.
Posted by uuni on 2011-11-18 13:13:06
I second Wreckage.
Posted by Were_M_Eye on 2011-11-18 14:04:59
Wreckage: Im joking about the post mouse made. The part of being caught once and just being warned.
Posted by Wreckage on 2011-11-18 15:10:04
Apologies... You know about irony and the internet :)
Anyhow I really hope thats not all you take from his great post either ;)