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2009

2009-04-28 19:21:04
rating 4.4
2009-01-16 14:20:25
rating 3.7
2009-04-28 19:21:04
66 votes, rating 4.4
Bloodbowl Chances – A comparison
Content:
I. Intro
II. WOW
III. Card Games
IV. Magic – The Gathering
V. Poker
VI. Chess
VII. Bloodbowl
VIII. Postword
IX. Backgammon Postword

I. Intro
It’s common knowledge that Bloodbowl is about probabilities. But lately I have come to notice that when I mention that, I get the answer: most games are. That’s very wrong. Most games have to do with probabilities, but they aren’t ABOUT them.
The following is an attempt to explain -mainly to newbies- how much different this game is and how you can advance, if you get rid of your misbelieve and give yourself to Nuffle.
The games used are mere random examples and an understanding of them is not necessary.

II. WOW (World of Warcraft)
WOW has a similar character-based value development with different parts to choose.
Most likely you will find somewhere in the Internet all the chances listed that come with different development trees, which tell you exactly what has the best chance to make the most damage per second. Choosing that tree is a no brainer. It doesn’t even effort that you understand anything about chances, just that you can browse the internet. You can go for power-gaming and take the best of the best, or you try to bash your way through, using something that you might call a fun based idea. Let’s override the term “powergaming” and use for it the made description.

Powergaming is something that exists in Bloodbowl too. It’s equally present. Let’s just say at this point, that the fact that powergaming exists, doesn’t make a game ABOUT probabilities. To know what is the best choice, certainly shows that you have spend time, working with the game and tried to improve. However, Powergaming neither proofs that you are good in the understanding of a game-dynamic nor that you are good in probabilities. It just shows that you like to win. That’s ok but that isn’t even 15% about what Bloodbowl is about.

III. Card Games
Card games have the ability to be more about chances then dice games, because the outcome of every round is based on the outcome of the prior round. A vast understanding of chances can proof here very useful. However in the context chances are important is mainly due to the ability to remember cards. So you could better say, card games are about the ability to remember stuff with a probability component..

IV. Magic – The Gathering
What makes MTG special is, that people mainly use different decks to play with. The real challenge of the game is not just to win it, but to design a deck out of thousands of different cards, that is capable to compete in a reasonable way against every other deck. If a deck is successful and wins tournaments people will try to copy it, using one of two different cards and a new deck-type is created. They commonly get names after a while like: “Fishdeck” , “Elfdeck”, “Dread Return” or “Counterdeck “, telling the insider what combination of cards he can expect next. Of course, there will be mostly only one or two deck-types that really have the best overall chances to win. Still, most people won’t use them neither will they use just random cards. It’s much more likely they will base their deck around an idea they like on the one hand but that on the other hand has still reasonable chances to win. In that deck-types resemble races in Bloodbowl very much. Giving a diversity, even tho’ the coach always knows that he might not have chosen the most competitive race, he might still stick with it. Bloodbowl however is too balanced as if you really could choose a “wrong” race. Every race can win. You can technically even base every race just around linemen and it still will work. Yes, Bloodbowl is THAT balanced actually. However if you try hard enough, create a pure Thrall team and always take Pass Block as first skill you might find yourself still at a dead end.
Let’s call that aspect game “Design”. Now I think I have made my point clear that a game having a Design doesn’t make it about chances. So Bloodbowl isn’t ABOUT chances because it has a Design aswell.
The other aspect about magic is diversity. Most decks in Magic will try to handle the opponents deck somehow. The problem here is, that particular cards give only answers against particular threats like “Creatures” or “Enchantments” or “Red Spells” or whatever. In that respect it is similar to skills like “Tackle” in Bloodbowl. Personally I hate tackle, because its mere nature makes it impossible to create balance. It’s basically an unbalancer that can only justify itself on a larger scale. That this doesn’t work on places like R really well, we see from the example of Amazons, the statistical champions among the ranking rookie teams. However in Magic every skill is pretty much like “Tackle”. Because of that, it’s reasonable to choose cards against types of decks you think it is likely that you are going to play against them. Being able to handle that aspect of a game will also significantly improve your chances to win. A good cherrypicker is never going to just play TS down, instead he will be very much aware of his personal strengths and weaknesses and base his decision to play against someone around it.
Let’s call this aspect of the game “Diversity”. To have a good empathy of the Diversity in a game you don’t need just to understand chances, let’s say this part of the game is a highly skilled one and it contains the ability to know the enemy. Yeah, that’s right. Advanced Cherrypicking needs reasonable skill. A good coach should be able to at least understand it.

V. Poker
Most people will say: Isn’t Poker about chances? Honestly? Of course. Actually, to just understand your chances is basically necessary to really start playing. If you don’t know the odds that your set of cards is better then the set of your opponents could be, you are lost to begin with. The thing is you are limited to the odds of 5 cards out of 7 in any case. The tricky part is now to attain the correct amount of money to these chances. Who bets with the odds will eventually win. But that’s where you are wrong about in Poker. Of course there are hundreds of people out there you could beat like that but lets be serious here. Its their lack of understanding that makes you win there. However, the moment you advance to a group that knows, what they are doing, assuming you always take the best chance, you will be like a glasshouse. They will be able to tell what you have from your bets and eventually beat you. So truth. You know the chances. What the game really is about once you handle them is bluffing.

VI. Chess
Bluffing ain’t part of Bloodbowl. Bloodbowl is always like a glasshouse. That’s why it resembles chess on the hand and poker on the other. Poker would be lame if you would play with open hands. Bloodbowl/Chess would be lame if you played with hidden ones. You and your opponent are supposed to have the exact same amount of data. Things might not go the way you have planned them, but that’s mainly because you didn’t plan it. Maybe your opponent has planned ahead for the possibility that you might loose the ball and suffer a turnover while you didn’t. Chess has a rather limited amount of possible outcomes, that a sole brain can possibly all can think trough, allowing computers to get really really good at it. It might take a little while but believing in chances always pays off on the long run.
Bloodbowl has to consider thousands of different variables, resulting from every single player and how he ends his moves. The row you move them and when the impact of the turnover is going to strike you. It gets more complicated when you calculate the odds for the reroll in. You now have to apply the possibilities for what you do before the reroll, after the reroll, up to wich point you will even use it, wich consequences this will have for your next turns, and of course the chance of a failed reroll.

VII. Bloodbowl
The problem is: In any other game you would say. Ah look here: Low risk, medium benefit, I take the chance. In Bloodbowl you know: No matter how low the risk is, a failure means the end of the world. Yes, a turnover IS the end. Let’s face it. If you are new to this game you maybe think: Turnover will happen. It can’t be helped. Of course there will be lots and lots of turnovers. Often it doesn’t even matter. But a good coach hasn’t turnovers every turn. Not even every second turn. If a good coach suffers a turnover he mostly has created a situation where he can handle the impact in advance.
What I’m trying to say is: You must choose your actions as wisely as you can. An unnecessary GFI means the end. A wrongly careful play that doesn’t take that badly needed last GFI might mean it as well. It’s all about chances. It really is. It’s the basic, the advance and the professionality in this game. Bloodbowl is ABOUT it, about nothing else. It’s the whole beauty of the game.

VIII. Postword
Powergaming, Diversity, Design other games are about that. All this has its own components of odds. If you are going to ignore it all, you will lose, as well. Squeezing the best chances out of everything doesn’t end when the ref blows the whistle. Get a concept that’s based on chances and stick to it. You can be proud of yourself when you win. Even if you played Orks. …Just if you played Dwarves or Khemri you are a moron.

IX. Backgammon Postword

It's undeniable that Blackgammon is about chances. It's pretty much the same type of 2D-odds rolls, you can calculate for just one action or for a long streak and look and see what is the best you are going to get out of it.
The probability of actions is not just a streak of rolls. It's the way that you look at these little squares you have ahead of you. It's the way that you know this movement 7 guy can make a TD being 4 squares in the opponents half and at the same time support your defense 5 squares down. Because you went NOT for the possibility that maybe some lucky opponent throw succeeds or fails, but for both.
You don't care if you are getting lucky or not because you are prepared in the best possible way for every event, no matter what happens .And you don't just move your players around. You take the time to think about what you are doing and you might realize if I had put this one guy one more square to the left, my opponent would have needed to roll that one single additional 2+ that could have made the difference and you didn't... and then next game you put that player one more square to the left and your oppoennt pushes that guy close the sideline and you learn... yes, he has to do this 2+ but he forces me to do a risky dodge in the next turn, or to loose my player... and then you say... I give a damn about that one possible streak of chances...It's not just the next move, the next TD, the entire game.
And Nuffle knows, that's not something you can calculate... that's not something you can write into a computer and he will hand you out a freakking result... It's something you get only trough the advanced perspective you're getting from having a real human brain... but what your brain needs to handle right here... are the probabiities.. it needs to understand the likleyness of every single part of the game no matter how small or unimportant it is... it's so brilliant because it really is a calculation... just a really really big complex one.. because everything comes back at you like a deadly fire... and you can do that not with a freakking calculator... you do that with your freakking mind.
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Comments
Posted by Jubee on 2009-04-28 19:24:57
Good post. It was really enlightening.
Posted by maysrill on 2009-04-28 19:28:20
I gave this a good rating because it combines 2 things I respect a lot: lists and roman numerals.

VI stars!
Posted by WindexChugger on 2009-04-28 19:36:11
Very well written, I enjoyed it. Thanks
Posted by PhrollikK on 2009-04-28 21:01:53
A great take on BB.

I somehow have always likened BB to poker. Ofc Poker is won really on the betting side of things and not on playing probabilities, yet it all comes down to how much you are prepared to push your luck in order to win.
Posted by Plorg on 2009-04-28 22:13:36
You had me until the last sentence.
One thing that many geniuses on this site forget...

If you say that Khemri coaches are morons,
THEN YOU HAVE JUST CALLED CHRISTER A MORON.
Posted by DukeTyrion on 2009-04-28 22:39:15
What about Backgammon?

Backgammon is about probabilities and it's the closest game I have found to Blood Bowl from the Skill vs Luck perspective.
Posted by Wreckage on 2009-04-28 23:18:42
Honestly? No clue about backgammon.... just brought some examples... sry, Duke :)
Posted by arw on 2009-05-12 13:38:18
Well done- an interesting read.
On the other hand I disagree with your main point:
I don't consider BB to be about chances.

An aspect that you ignored completely is: emotion.
Not that surprising taking your rather rational approach into account.
Maybe... "maybe"... winning BB games is about chances. Then again I wonder: Why don't we all play Elves or "powerraces" (whatever they are) or cherrypick? Just to play on a higher competitive level? I don't think so.
As you said: Certain coaches are attracted to certain races just because they like them. For fluff maybe. The same goes for a risky maneuver: I don't GFI-dodge-blitz-foul because I believe it to be the wisest winning move with the highest odds. I am not just mistaken. Sometimes it is just way more fun!
This concept can hardly be found in chess (it can- very limited though).
Winning is often mentioned as "winning vs team building".
Team building gives you a higher level of identification with the game- it's present state (players etc) and the outcome (including injuries).
The bonds tying you to your fav team have no equivalent in chess or poker. It has an equivalent in WOW. Then again you never really die in WOW- let alone dying on a regular basis.
That's what creates a rather epic atmosphere suited for fluff and risky hot-headed moves. Emotional experience is what I love BB for. It has quite something to do with chances- not with calculation though. Just the contrary: Not being able to calculate like in chess gives emotion. *Luck* (a word you pretty much evaded) has always inspired men and was considered as divine by most if not all ancient cultures. There's no second game I'd know about to deliver this emotional rollercoaster like BB ^^

Then again I respect your approach for sure and it will eventually lead to the higher win-ratio. The diversity of different approaches to BB is also something I love about this game ;-)

Cheers!
Posted by GoodWill on 2009-05-12 21:19:57

As a gaming fan an all possible levels I very much like your post too for its evaluation of single game-types.

Got a few objections however:

- Chess is not about probabilities at all and doesn't belong in this list, since it is not actually a "game"!
What you consider the variety of possible outcomes fully depends on the decision your opponent makes. He wont have to roll dice or draw cards to set his counter-plan in motion. Chess is pure competition which is is why oftentimes it is labelled as a "sport".

- You tend to throw in sideaspects with all the other games and treat them as "part of the game" while you insist on seperating the "moving on your turn"-part from the rest in BB.:

*Arws comment about emotions is already about what I mean.

*Also, if playing up to your probabilities in Poker wont have you win when playing pros, isn't it the same in BB? If your oppo can predict what you will do next and plans according to it you are screwed. Playing the optional (little less likely to succeed) plan will actually improve your gameplan against pros. Here we find the good old "I know that you know that I know (that you hope I oversaw...)" game, which is sublimely (and solely) played in Chess!

*Bluffing is part of Poker but not part of the "game of poker".
Poker is just about drawing cards and winning with the highest combination. The bluffing-part of it is just that important that it is commonly percepted to make for most of what Poker is.
Bluffing is (too a much lesser degree, I agree) also part of BB:
If you move your guys as if you intend to take the right flank ...
If you mislead your oppo by doing silly stuff like selecting foul just to move.
If (and this is the proper equivalent) you type stuff in the chat-box that is actually game-related.

So, if one takes an evaluation like this as far as you have, you should really assume that all those aspects are known about by either coach in a match which leaves you with:

BB is all about "probabilities" (and bluffing with respect to them)!

This word however refers too much to knowledge about the chances you take. Since we assume pro-coaches got their lists in mind, there is pretty much nothing left other than:

BB is all about "LUCK", which is pretty much just another word for "probabilities" ...


PS: Backgammon is awesome by the way! It's not a very complex game and thus a good example of how fast you can fully understand every single strategic component of a game, leaving you with nothing than luck/chances in the end.
Posted by Wreckage on 2009-05-12 21:53:50
Hmm, from of the recent comments i think i have to precise what I mean with probabilities in difference to luck.

Probabilities are (of course) predictable. Not in the way that you know what is going to happen, but in the way that you know what can happen. Luck is a mere natural force and one of the few excuses left in the modern world. (Not that I mind)

I am very well aware that Chess isn't about probabilities and I hesitated to put it in here, but I felt it was a too important to be left out.


Now while DukeTyrons comment is relativly short here, he looked me up in the channel and explained his position to me. He also made a comparison about Backgammon and Bloodbowl a few years ago in the Forum..

We all have different associations when it comes to this beautiful game, but I personally, felt very uncomfortable with it. Mainly for the reason you describe GoodWill. It's possible to capature a bunch of chances to a certain degree and once everyone is capable of doing it, it gets quite dull.

It's undeniable that Blackgammon is about chances. It's pretty much the same type of 2D-odds rolls, you can calculate for just one action or for a long streak and look and see what is the best you are going to get out of it.
Now if I would have thought of this game, I would have maybe come up with another word then "probabilities".

What I am trying to get at is something completly else. (With respect to arw's post that has his own truth in another respective.)

The probability of actions is not just a streak of rolls. It's the way that you look at these little squares you have ahead of you. It's the way that you know this movement 7 guy can make a TD being 4 squares in the opponents half and at the same time support your defense 5 squares down. Because you went NOT for the possibility that maybe some lucky opponent throw succeeds or fails, but for both. You always handle both situations and you apply an efford that is reasonable compared to the chances related to it. So... if for example the chances of my opponent are almost 0 to steal the ball from me. I can rely on a mere winning game and ignore the catcher deep in my half, ready to score. But if that chance raises to just 5% I might wanna get an additional back up plan and just tackle them. Well aware that the same Tackle might be killing my players but also might be killing the guy being in a tacklezone. The more you are aware of the possible consequences you are around with, the better you are capable of planning ahead.

You don't care if you are getting lucky or not because you are prepared in the best possible way for every event, no matter what happens .And you don't just move your players around. You take the time to think about what you are doing and you might realize if I had put this one guy one more square to the left, my opponent would have needed to roll that one single additional 2+ that could have made the difference and you didn't... and then next game you put that player one more square to the left and your oppoennt pushes that guy close the sideline and you learn... yes, he has to do this 2+ but he forces me to do a risky dodge in the next turn, or to loose my player... and then you say... I give a damn about that one possible streak of chances... I gotta look at whole picture. I gotta see it all. It's not just the next move, the next TD, the entire game.. It's the whole freakking career of this team that is at stake here, what are the chances for this. and you value both against each other and you say ... let him do this one freakking less 2+ roll, you can handle it.
And that's the learning expierence. In opposition to realize "that you can force him to do that one more 2+ roll and then being upset if your supportive player ends up out of the game and you later loose it because you can just field 10 guys. And then are upset about your luck, because you believe, all you did was the correct thing to do.

And Nuffle knows, that's not something you can calculate... that's not something you can write into a computer and he will hand you out a freakking result... It's something you get only trough the advanced perspective you're getting from having a real human brain... but what your brain needs to handle right here... are the probabiities.. it needs to understand the likleyness of every single part of the game no matter how small or unimportant it is... it's so brilliant because it really is a calculation... just a really really big complex one.. because everything comes back at you like a deadly fire... and you can do that not with a freakking calculator... you do that with your freakking mind.


and of course... my opponent can still roll three 6'es and beat me against all odds... yeah... and that's part of the beauty.. in that it's like life.. but if you are good you can just look ahead because you know it's only getting better. You can believe that you can make something out of yourself... or you can act like some messed up shit and say "hey, I wasn't lucky"... and what am I supposed to answer then... yes, maybe you weren't lucky.. but who cares... you are some messed up shit you look like a Wreckage.
Posted by GoodWill on 2009-05-13 22:41:44

I think I kind of understand what you are wanting to say now.

Wreckage, if you haven't decided yet about what work you wanna do later, take into consideration the following:

- Philosopher
- Inspirational Speaker
- Motivational Coach
- Personal Coach