Posted by Qaz on 2011-06-29 17:40:24
It just aint MMA...
Posted by morehouse on 2011-06-29 17:43:59
Exactly Qaz, that's why I love it. ;)
Posted by Gromrilram on 2011-06-29 17:55:47
haye in fact is world champion.
Posted by lizvis on 2011-06-29 18:03:46
i hope you have an edit button...........
"and also a just a pretty cool guy."?
try proof reading sober next time :D
Posted by koadah on 2011-06-29 18:06:22
So am I. I regained the title from my son at the weekend.
Posted by Gromrilram on 2011-06-29 18:17:14
not going to comment at fighting your own son, but as we speak about the world heavy weight championship of 3 of the 4 IBHOF recognised titles, thats maybe what i was speaking about...
Posted by morehouse on 2011-06-29 18:28:51
Haye is what we call in the boxing community a "belt holder." Most boxing writers have moved to a philosophy of not calling anyone a "world champion" unless they are a recognized, lineal champion (check Ring Magazine, a recognized authority on lineal champions) like Wladimir is.
The word "champion" used to mean that you were the best in your division, and people in the boxing community are trying to take the term back from the countless sanctioning bodies. That is why I call Wladimir a world champion and not Haye... yet anyway.
Posted by BlizzBirne on 2011-06-29 19:38:52
nice article. and understandable enough that the US public rather prefers the raw puncher that goes for the one big hit ... but if the profession in sports (and here in boxing) actually counts anything, then wlad definitely is the better boxer. but that doesn't win him the coming match - in heavyweight, the big punch can always come. so it is going to be an interesting fight, no matter who you would count for the better (or worthier) champion.
any, as of yet, haye is no champion - very much agreeing to the definition you just gave.
let's get ready to rumble ... only 3 evenings to go. ;-)
Posted by BlizzBirne on 2011-06-29 19:39:49
er ... and even, not any ... sorry. ;-)
Posted by morehouse on 2011-06-29 19:47:06
Very much agree Blizz that Wlad is a more skilled boxer who has honed his craft very, very well under Manny Steward, one of the greatest trainers in the history of boxing.
Posted by Purplegoo on 2011-06-29 19:59:06
I can't get into MMA. Feels a bit dirty. :/
I'll have a read later. All the best with it.
Posted by PurpleChest on 2011-06-29 20:37:17
The problem with lineage titles is people retiring undefeated, and non title fights.
Joe Calzaghe was a world champio and retired undefeated. 46/0/0.
After retirement he did lose, to his 4 year old nephew. Lineage wise the title now resides with a 9 yeear old at the school that kid ending up attending.
Now this is one tough 9 year old. He will likely hold it a while. But he doesnt even know that by lineage he is a world champion.
Posted by morehouse on 2011-06-29 20:52:27
The Ring's policy on vacated titles is pretty fair. If a lineal title is vacated they only award it to somebody else when the number 1 and number 2 ranked contenders fight each other, or in rare cases (such as if the number 1 contender has already defeated the guy now ranked second earlier in his career) the 1st and 3rd ranked guys.
Another site that I actually prefer more, is Boxrec.com which does a computer ranking formula, taking a lot of the human bias out of the equation. I would consider being ranked 1st in your division by Boxrec to be just about as much of an honor as being a Ring Magazine champion.
For the record, Wladimir Klitschko is Ring Champion and ranked 1st at heavyweight by Boxrec.
Posted by n3m3sYs on 2011-06-29 21:11:46
i just checked out hayes "highlights" ... if u can call it that. his opponents looked weaker, slower and nothing like klitschko. good boxing management he got, picking weak opponents up to the top, to get a shot at the title. id be VERY surprised if he wins the fight.
Posted by morehouse on 2011-06-29 21:16:34
You might have been a little deceived by the fact that most of Haye's fights have been at cruiserweight, the division below heavyweight. He did fight many good opponents in that division, but you are right that he has never fought a heavyweight that was as large and skilled as Wladimir, not even close.
Posted by n3m3sYs on 2011-06-29 21:24:19
@morehouse anyway good article, im german and huge basketball fan. NOW nowitzki is finally called, one of the all time greats. when actually he was really one of the best out there through all these years... americans ARE about more about show and maybe little less about effectiveness/skill.
Posted by Purplegoo on 2011-06-29 21:35:48
Rankings, eh? Would those computer rankings take into account results that judges give home town fighters where most neutrals say they lost the fight?
I'm not saying we should change the three judge system; just that you can't get away from at least _some_ human involvement when it goes the distance.
I think Khan will get done next fight too, by the way. Might be a long few weeks for Brits!
Posted by morehouse on 2011-06-29 21:47:41
I have different feelings than yourself I think about how to think about "interesting" decisions by judges. I generally believe that when fans disagree with the judges, it is because the fans are wrong. Fans tend to judge in favor of the guy they are rooting for, the underdog, etc.
I'm sure you are probably talking mostly about the Macklin fight, and I only saw the last few rounds so I can't tell you how I would have scored it until I go back and watch it. I did hear a lot of sentiment about how he had been a victim of bias judging, which Germany has a bit of a reputation for.
It is worth noting though that a few weeks back Australia's Daniel Geale beat German Sebastian Sylvester by split decision in Germany, so it certainly isn't impossible to get a fair shake over there.
You do make a fair point though about how a computer system can't use the "eyeball test" to determine how good a fighter looked, it has to trust the judges in cases of a fight going the distance.
Also, I 100% agree that Khan is in for trouble against Judah. Even though I think Tim Bradley is a better overall fighter, I have thought for a while that Judah is a tougher match up for Khan due to his power and Khan's trouble taking a good punch. I will be very impressed if Amir wins that fight convincingly.
Posted by lizvis on 2011-06-29 21:50:04
i disagree with the general stance of the article. i'm american and i can't stand haye, and think that wlad is a much more likable fighter. but then again, i'm 'odd' :D
Posted by morehouse on 2011-06-29 21:51:39
I see where you are coming from Liz, I was just making the point that the guys who tend to be massive stars in America (Ali and Tyson probably the two most famous heavyweights ever) are generally brash and outspoken.
Posted by morehouse on 2011-06-29 21:53:49
Also, there is a tendency for people to be drawn to outspoken athletes even if you don't "like" them. A lot of people hated Ali, but he was massively famous. A guy that's just sort of a decent, respectful guy like Wlad is unfortunately easy to ignore.
Posted by lizvis on 2011-06-29 21:57:15
oh yeah, i almost forgot.......
comparing wlad to larry isn't exactly a great comparison, especially when you don't discount the comparison by stating that not only was larry a 'boring jab' fighter in most people's eyes, but he also had the unfortunate experience of following ali as champion.
Posted by Purplegoo on 2011-06-29 22:00:40
On the judge v watching front, perhaps. And it's not as widespread (weird calls) as people sometimes make out. But it does happen, you do have to (often, not always) win by 3 rounds away to win by 1 on a card.
I didn't see Macklin, I've just read in otherwise reserved and well regarded publications it was a horrid decision, so I'm assuming they're right. Assumption is the mother of all...
Posted by morehouse on 2011-06-29 22:06:07
I actually think that while Wlad isnt immediately following the coattails of of a guy like Ali, the public was spoiled by the 90s like they were spoiled by the 70s.
The 90s were probably the second greatest era for heavyweight boxing, the title changed hands so many times, guys like Tyson, Holyfield, Lewis, Foreman, Morrison, Bowe, and Moorer were all entertaining fighters and many of their match ups brought huge amounts of attention to the sport.
They both are somewhat victims of their own dominance in that they never had legit rivals, unless Haye can be that guy for Wlad, we'll see.
Posted by Gromrilram on 2011-06-30 01:58:49
"haye hasnt fought anyone as large as klitschko"
Posted by morehouse on 2011-06-30 03:03:59
the actual quote was "large and skilled"
He has fought guys as large, and maybe as skilled, but not a combination of the two until now.
Posted by Beerox on 2011-06-30 23:35:08
Well, I must be a strange American. I rather enjoy the dry Klitschko "trash talk". Then again I am a Fedor fan as well. All he ever does is say his opponents are really good fighters and swell guys.
Maybe I'm a closet 80s-era Soviet?
One thing is for sure, I definitely don't desire a loud-mouthed, annoying champ in any sport.