Posted by pythrr on 2018-07-12 18:16:09
it will be frustrating as hell.
Posted by mrt1212 on 2018-07-12 18:46:43
Good luck! Can't wait to see what you build up.
Posted by DrDeath on 2018-07-12 18:48:00
Yes I know how you feel and it's a shame. Box should be the best way of scheduling games, it's fairest after all. But Box teams are at a huge disadvantage now against the farmed mega-teams of Ranked, as has been discussed in forum threads recently. And they can't avoid them now in Major tournaments - I think the removal of Box-only Majors was a mistake, there is really no incentive to play Box teams any more if your goal is to gear up for Majors.
Posted by Rbthma on 2018-07-12 19:37:12
I really think we should keep the Black Box Trophy an active thing (In some form) - has been very good for the box. Enjoyed our match Joost and look forward to getting picked on ;)
Posted by morehouse on 2018-07-12 19:38:43
This is a giant misconception. Some of the biggest teams on the site are box teams. The runner up in the last major was a box team that came in at 2500 or so. The reason people see Box as the division of smaller teams is that box coaches intentionally min-max to try to get easier games, it's just that division's form of cherry picking.
You want a big team in box? Hire more than 3 rerolls. Stop using your apo on BH and KO. Stop spending treasury money against random opponents. Stop firing healthy players to recycle for stats and doubles.
Posted by Joost on 2018-07-12 19:48:23
Perhaps it is a misconception, but I'd like to test that thesis. Because I can see why the claw teams would thrive better in Box than in Ranked, but as said, I don't think that's the case for other teams. Also, you mention minmaxing which of course happens to a degree. Some coaches do so quite blatantly. But from experience I see a hard ceiling for many teams at ~2100 TV. YOu can get above that, but not for long. At least, not if you're me :-)
So we'll see. Maybe I'll stand corrected (or frustrated, as pythrr says). I'll either go back to Box, play tourneys only or find something else. But I think it's worth a try as long as I'm interested in tourneys.
Posted by morehouse on 2018-07-12 20:10:02
I should say I do think your first reason is very valid and a main one for me playing ranked. Too often I find box is for people that need to force other people to play them or nobody would want to. Not a majority I'm sure but you know what they say about a few bad apples.
Posted by MattDakka on 2018-07-12 20:12:35
Without PO Claw teams are not as scary as in CRP, and about the Dwarf team in the last major: Dwarfs are more playable at high TV now because they don't face cpomb anymore, and if you monoactivate a high TV team over and over again chances are you will face lower TV teams most of times, and this helps to keep the team up and running without suffering too much damage.
So maxmax is the Box issue I can perceive, not minmax, and as far as I know in the Box currently only 1 Chaos Pact team is still blatantly minmaxing like it used to do in CRP, but without cpomb now.
To have better pairings in matchmaking some coaches either cycle strong tier 1 races (they don't bother minmaxing because there is no more cpomb) or monoactivate strong high TV teams (some of these coaches are building for a major), generally bashy ones. Many coaches manage their TV in the Box, that's true, but that can't be called minmaxing. As far as you play with at least 2 team rrs and the Apothecary I don't think it can be considered minmaxing.
Posted by MattDakka on 2018-07-12 20:16:03
And by the way, the problem is not how to have a high TV team in the Box, the problem is having an effective, competitive Box team that can stand a match with a high TV Ranked team developed through picking and not with blind matchmaking.
Posted by Fanky on 2018-07-13 10:09:44
Black Box Trophy is one of the best things on fumbbl!
Posted by Malmir on 2018-07-13 21:20:43
If you want to create something big and cuddly play ranked. Big and nasty play box. Very hard to build either in the opposite.
Posted by Catalyst32 on 2018-07-14 04:08:13
Ranked does not have to be a Cherry Picking Experience.
You can Reverse Pick... someone has bee calling it Lemon Picking.
Pick a team you should not be able to beat and try to overcome the odds.
Or maybe you seem to ALWAYS lose to 1 roster or the other.
So you can do as I have done at times and focus on whatever is troubling you.
I have done stints trying to face Necros, Lizards, Orcs, Elves (when I am Norse or Human), etc. etc.
If you will impose certain rules on yourself designed to challenge yourself as a coach Ranked can be TOUGHER than Box.
Plus, maybe you could give yourself 1 team that ALWAYS cherrypicks to give yourself a win when it would be good for morale.
Or you could try to play a balanced schedule. For example, every 10 games play 2 Cherries, 3 Lemons, and 5 Toss Ups... or something of the like.
Posted by ArrestedDevelopment on 2018-07-14 10:23:01
A balanced schedule would not involve ANY "cherries" imo. Every roster has races that are tricky/balanced for it at various parts of development, so it should be more than attainable to always find a game that is not directly in your favour racially. Couple with a reasonable coaching level and every game you play can be a "toss up".
I sort of agree with Malmir,but not entirely - there exists a point, where, in my opinion, if you just want to be big, the box is actually better. Ranked will make it easier to be big with a positive winning record and maybe some statfreaks, since you can pick and choose opponents to a point of silliness if you so wish - but it should be noted, playing poor coaches endlessly will leave you badly prepared for a tournament, and on the verge of being denied entry if you're at the levels of picking some display. That aside, the very nature of which teams reach high tv restricts your ability to grow - if you're being choosy to make a tourney team, then in R eventually you will find that your high tv bash can't get games except against precisely the sort of team you'd rather only play once you're in the tourney. If you've got high tv elves, you'll find that if you've skilled them for a tourney and have a lot of guard and mb, your choices are somewhat slim too.
The box doesn't have this issue. Yes, you may very well end up playing Rash, whichever Nurgle team Malmir is rolling, various varieties of chaos dorf... but while these games may test your bench and apo, they do prepare you for tournament play by exposing you to exactly the type of teams and coaches you will have to beat if you want to win one. Nobody ever really mentions that depending when you activate you can also run into some of the biggest elf teams in the box too (mrt1212's HE, rawlf's woodies, bancobat's woodies etc). Or some of the biggest vampires.
And this is because if all you're interested in doing is growing, the box is somewhat simpler - you may end up with a much worse win% than you would in ranked (you also, btw, may not, see eg. Malmir's homepage), but you're not restricted by playing "favourable/reasonable" matchups, and so can blast through games. The stats and doubles will come eventually.
And once a team gets asbolutely massive, there is really not much an attrition focused opponent can do unless they are equally massive, or get real luck on bribes coupled with a good inducement plan.
Which brings me to me final point - in R, if you make a 2.5m team, chances are you're just restricting yourself in terms of opponents. In box, you can still play anyone 30+ games old, and they can't say no. The potential to be huge is bigger in box, it just takes commitment in one direction. And to be fair, ignoring general box results just to get a massive tourney team is nothing new - Azyx made huge HE for fumbbl cup a while back in CRP by stocking all his cash for SE and then getting massive just before the cup started (vapour le compot), and well, dominik has made a career out of not caring about any box game that isn't a brawl or major.
Posted by MenonaLoco on 2018-07-14 17:17:13
Thats right. I only get ranked games, because i got only clawless bloaties and an amateur team (all linos).
My box-nurgz wouldnt get many oponents on ranked and my box-lizards would soon mostly get clawmbs if they were ranked.
Posted by MenonaLoco on 2018-07-14 17:21:28
You wrote that your aim is to build some monsters for tourneys - imho you will need a ton of patience at 1800+ claw-something in order to trick a noob into playing, while avoiding similar teams and legends, or get trashed by a good coach all the same.
Posted by Joost on 2018-07-14 21:33:38
OK, all fair points. Thaks everybody for chipping in. Some further clarification: I don't want to make a claw team. I've found that I enjoy playing Orcs, Vampires, Lizardmen and some Khemri the most. In my experience it is hard to raise khems and vamps beyond 1900 TV, and my orcs and lizzies are at 2100-2200, but will inevitably run into a chaos killer and be chopped up.
I never thought of that as a problem, until I started running into all those beefed up Ranked teams in tourneys (By a 'monster team' I mean any team over, say, 2400 TV, regardless of race btw). Win % hasn't been something I care much about, although I liked the Belts. I don't have the ideal solution though, and frankly starting all over in Ranked so far has put me off. So we'll see I guess.
Posted by ArrestedDevelopment on 2018-07-15 14:54:23
Ah Joost, I know you don't play clawmb predominantly, but I was just making the point that you *do* play predominantly bashy teams - orcs, khemri are the first teams that spring to mind when I think of you. Lizards sure too.
But what you'll find with these teams in R is that when you get to high TV your opponents will be largely the same as you'd find in box - unless you skill in a manner that makes you less likely to maim someone else's tourney team... but that leaves you with a team you'd never enter yourself.
Posted by Joost on 2018-07-15 15:55:38
True enough. I don't like playing the elves that much, and come to think of it I've played a lot with Norse too. We'll see how things go. I might come back within the month, meekly asking the Box community to accept me back in their middle. In the meantime I'll try lizzies first in Ranked, and add vamps and orcs later.
Posted by harvestmouse on 2018-07-17 22:14:32
Admins unnecessary work? There are several things that admins have to do that is unnecessary, however smacking douchebags is not one. Everybody here is Christers guest. If you're out of line you change or are removed. Screenshot and report bad behaviour.