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2013-05-02 22:51:19
21 votes, rating 5.5
21 votes, rating 5.5
Progression of a blood bowl coach
-Hey, cool, I can play blood bowl online. This is going to be fun.
-(Plays first game) Lost that one, but that’s ok. I just need to get better at strategy and tactics.
-(Plays many more games, comes across some unusual tactics) How come you didn’t score? Stalling? That’s no fun(Finishes game in a bad mood and a desire to make sure that nobody ever stalls against him again).
-(More unusual tactics) Why the heck did you foul me on turn 16? That makes no sense at all. (Again finishes the game in a bad mood because people are jerks).
-(Learns the definition of cherry picker) Why are people always asking me for unfair games in ranked? How many times do I have to play orcs and dwarves? (Quits ranked and moves to black box and league).
-Hey, cool, new rules. I will always have 11 players to start each game. And no more “get the ref” (One of the happiest moments in his life).
-(Plays many games in black box) Why are people retiring completely healthy players? Min/Max? Seriously? If I ever have to play against clawpomb again I’m going to (do something really bad and probably stupid).
-(Enjoys playing league for a while then…..) There is something seriously wrong with the dice. I have to be the unluckiest coach in the history of blood bowl. (Finishes most games in a bad mood now, both in league and black box).
-Finishes his last games in league, takes a year off of blood bowl.
-Coach comes back after a year with a new attitude about this game. I’m going to just have fun, no matter what happens…good luck, bad luck, players die…it doesn’t matter. I’m going to have fun and not complain.
-Coach actually starts to enjoy the game.
The End.
-(Plays first game) Lost that one, but that’s ok. I just need to get better at strategy and tactics.
-(Plays many more games, comes across some unusual tactics) How come you didn’t score? Stalling? That’s no fun(Finishes game in a bad mood and a desire to make sure that nobody ever stalls against him again).
-(More unusual tactics) Why the heck did you foul me on turn 16? That makes no sense at all. (Again finishes the game in a bad mood because people are jerks).
-(Learns the definition of cherry picker) Why are people always asking me for unfair games in ranked? How many times do I have to play orcs and dwarves? (Quits ranked and moves to black box and league).
-Hey, cool, new rules. I will always have 11 players to start each game. And no more “get the ref” (One of the happiest moments in his life).
-(Plays many games in black box) Why are people retiring completely healthy players? Min/Max? Seriously? If I ever have to play against clawpomb again I’m going to (do something really bad and probably stupid).
-(Enjoys playing league for a while then…..) There is something seriously wrong with the dice. I have to be the unluckiest coach in the history of blood bowl. (Finishes most games in a bad mood now, both in league and black box).
-Finishes his last games in league, takes a year off of blood bowl.
-Coach comes back after a year with a new attitude about this game. I’m going to just have fun, no matter what happens…good luck, bad luck, players die…it doesn’t matter. I’m going to have fun and not complain.
-Coach actually starts to enjoy the game.
The End.
Comments
Posted by Deniz87 on 2013-05-02 22:59:05
yeah that's the spirit...but being unlucky is frustrating anyway.
by a very unlucky coach ;)
by a very unlucky coach ;)
Posted by harvestmouse on 2013-05-02 23:04:53
The problem is.........it's very hard for a leopard to change it's spots. If you haven't found an aspect you like, I don't think you'll settle down in the same environment.
There are niches you can find. With the new gamefinder, there's no need to get stressed at being picked in ranked, you can easily avoid them. League is great, if you are willing to put in the time. Stunty is great too.
Bottom line though, I think you'll have to adapt as a player. Most people here play very competitively and will stall and use tactics that are so subtle, you feel your very unlucky.
The key to getting on is accepting you aren't the best and learning from that. This doesn't necessarily mean playing the best to learn from them (in a lot of cases I personally don't think that works particularly quickly, as you fail to pick up what they do). But playing coaches of a slightly higher level will help, and you'll have to adapt to stalling, the rules unfortunately won't allow you to be competitive without doing so.
There are niches you can find. With the new gamefinder, there's no need to get stressed at being picked in ranked, you can easily avoid them. League is great, if you are willing to put in the time. Stunty is great too.
Bottom line though, I think you'll have to adapt as a player. Most people here play very competitively and will stall and use tactics that are so subtle, you feel your very unlucky.
The key to getting on is accepting you aren't the best and learning from that. This doesn't necessarily mean playing the best to learn from them (in a lot of cases I personally don't think that works particularly quickly, as you fail to pick up what they do). But playing coaches of a slightly higher level will help, and you'll have to adapt to stalling, the rules unfortunately won't allow you to be competitive without doing so.
Posted by Badoek on 2013-05-02 23:09:16
stunty! You'll either find enlightenment or hell. Or both
Posted by Overhamsteren on 2013-05-02 23:13:54
Welcome back and good luck with having fun :O
Posted by Deniz87 on 2013-05-02 23:17:21
experienced coaches are obviously better then a rookie (real rookie).
But being unlucky is a matter of dice results...not tactics or gameplay style.
But being unlucky is a matter of dice results...not tactics or gameplay style.
Posted by Beerox on 2013-05-02 23:40:23
Alcoholism belongs in there somewhere.
Its complete omission shows that you have a ways to go before you reach enlightenment.
Its complete omission shows that you have a ways to go before you reach enlightenment.
Posted by SirOrange on 2013-05-02 23:41:42
What put me over the edge was the dice. I have lost games to good coaching and I have lost games to bad dice. I have also won many games because of great dice in my favor (and maybe a few wins to good coaching as well).
Although good coaching is important, so is good luck. I've just had to accept that luck is a big part of this game. I'm ok with that now :) It takes the right attitude to have fun even when the dice are going against you :) That was the main point of this post. Having fun no matter what.
Although good coaching is important, so is good luck. I've just had to accept that luck is a big part of this game. I'm ok with that now :) It takes the right attitude to have fun even when the dice are going against you :) That was the main point of this post. Having fun no matter what.
Posted by jimimothybodles on 2013-05-03 00:05:34
When you GFI 1 RR 1 into endzone for the millionth time you start to question, "have i ever scored when using a GFI?? No, no i haven't!" that's what's frustrating! Stupid brain.
Posted by harvestmouse on 2013-05-03 01:21:32
Most of the time you 'think' you are losing to good dice or bad dice, but actually you aren't.
Most lower ranked coaches simply do not see this. In fact to a lot of good coaches, some of the great coaches look 'lucky'. As either through exceptional maths or intuition can always pick the right moves to make at the right time.
New and lower ranked coaches are the complete opposite, picking inopportune times for taking risks, and the dice will make you pay for that in most games.
All that said, I think dice decide over 10% of games, but not into 20s%.
Most lower ranked coaches simply do not see this. In fact to a lot of good coaches, some of the great coaches look 'lucky'. As either through exceptional maths or intuition can always pick the right moves to make at the right time.
New and lower ranked coaches are the complete opposite, picking inopportune times for taking risks, and the dice will make you pay for that in most games.
All that said, I think dice decide over 10% of games, but not into 20s%.
Posted by happygrue on 2013-05-03 02:03:38
I think you've struck something important here with regard to actually enjoying the game. There are tactics and everybody loves to win, but how much you actually ENJOY playing Blood Bowl seems to have a lot to do with the attitude you bring to the game. When I start a game in a bad mood or without the right perspective about what is going on, I rarely enjoy it. But if I can keep calm and realistic about what's going on (it's a game after all) then I can still have a good time even while being diced if my opponent is a sport about it.
You get what you put in I guess!
You get what you put in I guess!
Posted by SirOrange on 2013-05-03 02:26:04
@harvestmouse. I really want to believe you on your view of luck, and maybe someday I will. Maybe I'll take a look at some of your games and see what you do different than me. But right now I have a very hard time believing that the dice only decide 10% of games. Especially since we have to roll dice in 100% of our games.
Posted by oryx on 2013-05-03 07:30:59
Others have estimated the figure to be more like 30%... There are very few coaches who win more than 70% of their games, especially if they play anything but tier1 minmax.
Of course, you could claim that they're winning 30% on dice, losing 30% on dice, and winning 40% on skill, in which case dice would be 60%...
Pomb is also a big game changer, since using it actively helps your opponent win (puts you out of position) with very high potential payoff. Possible that in the pomb heavy environment, more games are decided by dice than was true in the past.
Or maybe I have rose-colored-glasses memory... I do seem to remember feeling that many games were decided by how well fouling went in the past. Hard to say. I was a terrible player back then.
Of course, you could claim that they're winning 30% on dice, losing 30% on dice, and winning 40% on skill, in which case dice would be 60%...
Pomb is also a big game changer, since using it actively helps your opponent win (puts you out of position) with very high potential payoff. Possible that in the pomb heavy environment, more games are decided by dice than was true in the past.
Or maybe I have rose-colored-glasses memory... I do seem to remember feeling that many games were decided by how well fouling went in the past. Hard to say. I was a terrible player back then.
Posted by uuni on 2013-05-03 08:02:34
Good post.
Re chances: If coaches are of equal ability (~CR), the game seems to be at most 2:1 to overdog usually, as was planned. However, the coach ability makes a bigger difference than team composition. In the end, what harvestmouse said, is true.
Also, I think that is a main component on the 1000k TV matches: Because newcomer coaches enter at that TV, there is "loose CR" available at that TV in the matches. In ELO/CR, people start higher than the average coach and then most drop some points. In effect, that overhead is easier to grab than CR points on other TV amounts. Same for wins.
Re chances: If coaches are of equal ability (~CR), the game seems to be at most 2:1 to overdog usually, as was planned. However, the coach ability makes a bigger difference than team composition. In the end, what harvestmouse said, is true.
Also, I think that is a main component on the 1000k TV matches: Because newcomer coaches enter at that TV, there is "loose CR" available at that TV in the matches. In ELO/CR, people start higher than the average coach and then most drop some points. In effect, that overhead is easier to grab than CR points on other TV amounts. Same for wins.
Posted by Deniz87 on 2013-05-03 09:40:01
I disagree about dice.
It's strange saying that dice decide less of 20% in games since several people here (in a topic of a frustrate coach) replied that Blood Bowl is a dice game and you have to accept it!
In fact,dice affect EVERYTHING in Blood Bowl. Yeah,there are also skills and other things that help to give results. But dice are "daily bread" here and if you are unlucky....even your best tactic fails miserably.
It's strange saying that dice decide less of 20% in games since several people here (in a topic of a frustrate coach) replied that Blood Bowl is a dice game and you have to accept it!
In fact,dice affect EVERYTHING in Blood Bowl. Yeah,there are also skills and other things that help to give results. But dice are "daily bread" here and if you are unlucky....even your best tactic fails miserably.
Posted by krysskroz on 2013-05-03 13:31:46
I have to disagree with Harvetsmouse as well. Dice decide well over 20% of matches, because you cannot win a match without rolling dice. All other things being equal (coaches' ability and team tier) dice will always decide the match, with those variables being unequal then yes, dice become a smaller factor, and usually the coach that is better at rolling fewer dice or at rolling them at more opportune moments will win. Even recognizing that as an essential part of being a good coach accepts the fact that dice decide the game.
Simply put, dice (and thus luck) are as much a part of this game as coaching skill and pixel choices. You still need skill, but being the best coach in the world does no good if you pissed in Nuffle's cereal bowl.
Simply put, dice (and thus luck) are as much a part of this game as coaching skill and pixel choices. You still need skill, but being the best coach in the world does no good if you pissed in Nuffle's cereal bowl.
Posted by koadah on 2013-05-03 14:21:21
I'd say that the larger the gap between coach skill/experience the less likely it is that the game will be decided by luck.
If a person is consistently losing with a tier one team then there is more at work than just bad luck.
In a game featuring two experienced coaches luck is likely to be a major factor in who wins unless one of the coaches is very, very good.
Luck should even itself out over time but some people simply cannot handle bad luck. Even (especially?) if they have just gone 50/10/1. :twisted:
If a person is consistently losing with a tier one team then there is more at work than just bad luck.
In a game featuring two experienced coaches luck is likely to be a major factor in who wins unless one of the coaches is very, very good.
Luck should even itself out over time but some people simply cannot handle bad luck. Even (especially?) if they have just gone 50/10/1. :twisted:
Posted by Winni on 2013-05-03 18:23:17
"When you GFI 1 RR 1 into endzone for the millionth time you start to question, "have i ever scored when using a GFI?? No, no i haven't!" that's what's frustrating! Stupid brain."
Why dont you score without using a GFI then?
Why dont you score without using a GFI then?