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Poll
Based on the team downgrades options (see pg 2), how far does this team have to go to become balanced?
None! This team is fine as is!
34%
 34%  [ 10 ]
#1 Just dump one of the big guys, then you're golden
10%
 10%  [ 3 ]
#2 Drop ST on all those Tinkers as well
6%
 6%  [ 2 ]
#3 All the gnomes were too strong, ST1 throughout!
10%
 10%  [ 3 ]
#4 ST1 gnomes AND ST2 Constructs is the ticket
3%
 3%  [ 1 ]
#5 Doesn't matter what you do, this team sucks and I hates them
34%
 34%  [ 10 ]
Total Votes : 29


garyt1



Joined: Mar 12, 2011

Post   Posted: Mar 06, 2012 - 13:23 Reply with quote Back to top

Should these things be more suitable to fluff if they were some sort of hulking suits (steam powered?) which gnomes wear? That already would be super advanced. Programmed AI is way out there in this world.
Sigmar1



Joined: Aug 13, 2008
Location: Seattle

Post   Posted: Mar 06, 2012 - 17:27 Reply with quote Back to top

@garyt1... It's actually a clockwork GI, and its pretty unreliable, hence the players are Really Stupid.

And is it really wacky beyond anything we've seen in Warhammer before? (Rat-Ogres, Doomwheels, ST7 Fanatics, massive hulking 'Doom Engines' with a bound daemon inside etc. etc. etc.) So the gnomes are pushing the Tech boundary... no big deal.

Don't get so hung up on the fluff that you don't see the team.

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Rabe



Joined: Jun 06, 2009

Post   Posted: Mar 06, 2012 - 23:21 Reply with quote Back to top

I had a few ideas for a partly similar team. Some basics were:

Most players are constructs. They only get mutation access on normal rolls, reflecting the fact that physical modifications are far simpler to implement than to teach them (or "program") real skills. However, the constructs have Regeneration, representing a crew of mechanics ready to repair them if possible. (No apo for the team though.)
I also thought about adding Titchy to almost all of them to show how useless they are when it comes to react quickly for stopping opposed players. Very low AG would have to balance the positive effect of Titchy. I also liked the idea in this thread about the vulnerable innards and added Decay to some of the players.
Also added Loner to many player to represent their inability to cooperate reliably. Team re-rolls however are fairly cheap (I was thinking 50k), since the mechanicians work well together - only their constructs often don't.

The "linemen" are Clockwork Gnomes. Being construct, their are rather strong for their small size, but less agile then their humanoid counterparts. Something like:
3 2 2 8 Stunty, Titchy, Thick Skull, Right Stuff, Regeneration, Decay, Take Root (their clockwork gets stuck)/Bone Head/Really Stupid M/GAPS

Another "player" (one or two of them) is the Spinner. A whirling disk on wheels that has hammers or knives attached to it and once activated at Kickoff starts whirling almost beyond control. Obviously a Ball & Chain player, relatively slow and actually not that strong. But still a construct with Regeneration and M access (only). And a Secret Weapon of course. They don't have Decay since it's not really complicated mechanics. Something like:
2 4 1 8 Ball & Chain, No Hands, Secret Weapon, Regeneration M/GAPS

The Scarecrow is a really pointless player, but I like the idea of a pimped scarecrow and didn't want to withhold it from you. Look at its stats and skills and one really doesn't know what it's good for. Very Happy It either has to have MA 0 or 1 if that's not possible. I (or the mechanicians) figured the only way for a thing on a stick is to attach a feather that makes it bounce up and down...
1 1 1 9 Thick Skull, Very Long Legs, Leap, Disturbing Presence, Regeneration M/GAPS

A fun addition after the discussion on constructs blowing themselves up would be a small, clockwork-driven vehicle, loaded with bombs - a Bomb Seeder. Note that secret weapons can't ignore tackle zones, so the skill only has a negative effects here (-1 on passing, +1 on injury). It's only purpose is to keep it safe until you can move it into a critical spot and then blow it up. Throwing a bomb actually more represents the small vehicle moving somewhere and dropping a bomb. If it isn't hit, it was able to escape the explosion quick enough. Really Stupid adds to the problem since another player is needed. This "player" should be priced really low since it won't spend much time on the field anyway (and fluff-wise isn't a very expensive construction).
6 1 1 5 Stunty, Titchy, Sprint, Sure Feet, Bombardier, Secret Weapon, No Hands, Really Stupid, Decay M (GAPS)


I also wanted to include some mechanicians. My idea was a team led by mechanics addicted to Blood Bowl. I was thinking a human, a gnome and a dwarf, for more variety. I took a lineman of each race, lowered MA to represent the less athletic nature of these individuals and took the lowest AV available on the standard teams because they only wear light armor, if at all.
Obviosly these are fairly strong, while the rest of the team is quite pathetic (at least I think so). Fluff-wise it only works if it's convincing that members of those races work together on such a project. If not, the "Mechnician" would be a more generic type of player (possibly gnomish or human), maybe limited to 0-2 even.
Human Mechanician: 5 3 3 7 G
Gnome Mechanician: 4 2 3 7 Thick Skull, Right Stuff A
Dwarf Mechanician: 4 3 2 8 Thicks Skull GS


And then there are possible hybrids, constructs driven by a living being.

The Travel Catapult, a little catapult handled by a human (or gnome/dwarf). Really Stupid represents the need to have a second helping hand to really make it work (in time). No mutation access since you can't really attach something useful to a (small), more or less immobile catapult. Low AG and AV represent the problems of the crewman handling the catapult and doing stuff like catching and dodging. I was of course intrigued to give the catapult Bombardier as well (not hard to load it with something explosive), but I figured it would be too strong, since it's a decent thrower (with a lot of development potential, though it lacks regeneration or apo access while being rather fragile). I'd either add it anyway if the whole roster would be viewed as too weak or maybe make a star player catapult with the ability to throw bombs.
2 2 2 6 Really Stupid, Hail Mary Pass, Strong arm, Throw Teammate, Secret Weapon P (GAS)

The Lumberjack is probably the most controversial player: It is actually some kind of hulking suit, like garyt1 suggested, with two running circular saws attached to its "hands". The exact technical specifications are not quite clear (to me yet), but it's definitely an impressive sight and a rather unique chainsaw player. While it might seem awefully strong and hard to overcome (a well placed bomb might be a good way), its pure costs (that should be rather high, on big guy level) and the fact it is a secret weapon should even it out a bit. It also only gets mutation access, since it's rather hard to control, so any more refined actions (even guarding its teammates or breaking opponents' tackle attempts) are really hard to learn for the driver.
4 5 1 9 Loner, Bone Head, Thick Skull, Regeneration, Decay, Chainsaw, Secret Weapon M (GAPS)

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Sigmar1



Joined: Aug 13, 2008
Location: Seattle

Post   Posted: Mar 09, 2012 - 17:08 Reply with quote Back to top

Well, the consensus seems to be the team is too strong, so fluff (and possible team additions provided by Whatball and Rabe) aside for the moment here are some potential fixes to the team in the order I'd prefer to see them implemented.

1) Make the Automaton 0-1 as suggested by Zakatan. Not a huge difference, but one less ST5 and one more ST2 player on the pitch would be noticeable.

2) Change the Tinkers to ST1 and perhaps give them Fend (to represent learning how to keep the gnome bullies away). This would have a huge impact on the team’s bashiness as, let’s face it, ST1 sucks. Combined with #1 above, I just can’t imagine people still feeling the team overpowered at that point. A median change would be to implement #2 but not #1. On the plus side, AV7 thick skull is still tougher than average so perhaps still balanced. And even with the addition of Fend they’d probably still drop to 40K.

3) Change the Mechanics to ST1/ Fend. It seems like they’d need another skill to make them stand out and be effective (Leader or Dauntless are the only things that jump out at me as sufficiently fluffy). Still overpowered (you can’t be serious!?)…

4) Change the Constructs to ST2. I hate this idea but there it is. From a fluff standpoint it just doesn’t make sense that the gnomes couldn’t figure out a way to make a ST3 Construct (esp. given the ST5 Automatons), but if it were absolutely critical for team balance…

So, how much of the above, in your opinion, is required to offset two ST3 Block players with Really Stupid and Loner?

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WhatBall



Joined: Aug 21, 2008

Post   Posted: Mar 09, 2012 - 17:17 Reply with quote Back to top

Leave the constructs and mechanics ST alone if you go to ST1 for the core of the team and drop one automaton. I like the Fend idea.

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Sigmar1



Joined: Aug 13, 2008
Location: Seattle

Post   Posted: Mar 09, 2012 - 17:34 Reply with quote Back to top

@Whatball: So you're saying all modifications thru item #3, or just thru #2?

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WhatBall



Joined: Aug 21, 2008

Post   Posted: Mar 09, 2012 - 17:56 Reply with quote Back to top

Just through #2. Drop 3 & 4.

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the_cursed_one



Joined: Feb 18, 2010

Post   Posted: Mar 10, 2012 - 00:40 Reply with quote Back to top

robots ftw
Aflo



Joined: Jun 16, 2009

Post   Posted: Mar 10, 2012 - 01:03 Reply with quote Back to top

Just throwing it out there after reading the AI discussion and how it might be a bit far fetched for the BB universe...how about having them as remnant old one creations? To fill in anyone who's less savvy with Warhammer fluff the old ones were these godlike beings that came to the primordial planet and created the most of the races that now inhabit the world. So instead of gnome creations they could be Skyrim-dwemer-esque robots that have surfaced after being disturbed or something.

OR what would be better would be a combination of the two - a few intrepid gnomes discovering these weird machines and tinkering with them.

Feel free to disregard this, don't want to de-rail things unecessarily.
Rabe



Joined: Jun 06, 2009

Post   Posted: Mar 10, 2012 - 09:13 Reply with quote Back to top

Maybe gnomes could be able to copy the central mechanism without being able to really understand how it's working? They might still call it "Gnomical Intelligence" and alter the "robots" outer appearence so that they look more gnomish...

I don't know how much pride gnomes have though. Wink

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the_cursed_one



Joined: Feb 18, 2010

Post   Posted: Mar 10, 2012 - 09:16 Reply with quote Back to top

that seems abit necron-esque to me
Sigmar1



Joined: Aug 13, 2008
Location: Seattle

Post   Posted: Mar 10, 2012 - 23:13 Reply with quote Back to top

@Aflo, Rabe & the_cursed_one: Thanks but I'd rather stay with the fluff as is.

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Rabe



Joined: Jun 06, 2009

Post   Posted: Mar 11, 2012 - 01:36 Reply with quote Back to top

I'd do so as well... just wanted to throw in ideas. Smile

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Aflo



Joined: Jun 16, 2009

Post   Posted: Mar 11, 2012 - 10:28 Reply with quote Back to top

Yeh what Rabe said. If I'm being honest I'm having a hard time getting behind this as the background doesn't really seem to mesh with what I know of the Warhammer/BB world. Gnomes haven't been heard of since the late 80s when GW made more of a break from D&D, so fine they've been squirreled away in remote locations and come out as gnome teams. But the leap from the above to making robots from scratch with *substantial* AI without the aid of magic or warpstone is a bit much for me.
PsyPhiGrad



Joined: Dec 22, 2007
Location: Winnipeg

Post   Posted: Mar 11, 2012 - 17:14 Reply with quote Back to top

I wholeheartedly agree with you Aflo. I don't think we need a second gnome team.
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