Bullroarer4
Joined: Oct 22, 2012
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 Posted:
Apr 15, 2014 - 22:53 |
 
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| cameronhawkins wrote: | | Ok–– Because of the changes, the Squig Team is now too good, because they now have no weaknesses. Before, AV7 made the hoppers vulnerable to stab and foul, and Dodging on a 3+ made that unreliable. The changes that have been made are a positive buff, and it makes them no-contest against any team that lacks Secret Weapons or comparable strength. |
I can't say no weaknesses, but the weaknesses they do have can be managed easier than other teams. early, the lack of dodge can make a big difference on the blocking line as well as for positioning.
| cameronhawkins wrote: |
They have the highest ST in the leeg, and the second-highest AV, and they are arguably even more tough than Gnomes, because half their players don't have Stunty. And while stabby teams could get around the ST, now they can't. With Claw+MB+AV8, squiqs don't even fear taking BothDown against anyone without block. Literally anyone. |
this is a misnomer, IMO. IF you field all six ST 4 players you are taking a huge risk on your neg traits. On the other hand, if you field both hoppers and two-three squigs, you should be able to out bash most teams. This team feels more like an Orc team now rather than a chaos type: High strength, good basic skills (for stunty anyway) and solid, rock hard armor (again, for stunty). as for the both down issue, that wasn't a fear issue as much as a team RR management issue, which, like Orcs, can make a huge difference.
| cameronhawkins wrote: |
What I still don't understand is–– It's ok if the squigs themselves rock, but why do they need to have one of the best linemen in the leeg as well? Vampires work because Thralls suck and Vampires are great. Frankly, this seems incredibly basic, and I do not understand the reason that Herders still equal Goblins in every way after all these years of tweaking. |
my opinion is that this team is more based on the orc team rather than a variant Vamp team.
| cameronhawkins wrote: |
With the new Squigs, Bloodlust is now their only weakness. This means that one's entire path to success relies on your opponent getting unlucky. (Of course between Two Heads and Juggernaut, there are more rerolls to go around) And any Squig coach who knows what he's doing that he's will only field 2 non-Pro squigs at any one time. |
Can't really argue with this statement: i do try to know what i am doing. 
| cameronhawkins wrote: |
And, yes–– I did just play against them. It was a complete waste of time. My team had no chance whatsoever, and it was extremely demoralizing, and I eventually gave up. But several races in my situation (skinks, pygmies, etc) would have fared similarly. But I didn't get particularly unlucky. My opponent didn't get particularly lucky. The only remarkable thing about the game was how much one race was completely inexorable against the other. My best shot at the ball was a 2D uphill or a 9+ stab roll. My opponent pointed out that "stunty games are crazy". But this game was the absolute opposite of that, and that was exactly the problem: AV8, Juggernaut, Two Heads–– these are things whose only function is to increase reliability, which is the opposite of craziness. And so there was absolutely none of the tension that makes Stunty games fun, because at no point was my opponent's game in question. When your opponent rolling BothDown/BothDown with a blockless player is something you hope DOESN'T happen, something is wrong. |
Psychology certainly can play a part. With my coach rating so inferior to yours, i felt i had to play a much tighter game and take far fewer risks. i do agree that the changes have increased the reliability of this particular roster.
| cameronhawkins wrote: |
Certainly some types of races will always have advantages against other types, but this is just too extreme. I have played High Elves and Amazons against Dwarves, and this had nothing on that. |
This match felt more like rookie skaven vs rookie orcs, but i do agree that this particular roster had an advantage against your roster. Against Nurgle i didn't do as well, though.
| cameronhawkins wrote: |
Teams need to have vulnerabilities or else the game is not fun. It may be counter-intuitive to some, but vulnerabilities make a team MORE fun–– to play as or against–– which is why Ogres, Goblins, Halflings, and Vampires are the most fun races in mainline divisions–– because they are exquisitely vulnerable. Hoping someone rolls 1 on Bloodlust or 2 on a pick-up does not constitute a exploitable weakness, and makes for a very what-am-I-doing-here kind of experience. |
I could argue that most of the goblin-esq rosters have less weaknesses early on in their development. last year, forest goblins dominated by a fair margin, with their multiple stab and tentacles. Cheaters had a good showing as well. |
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Tenacious doesn't begin to describe me. Never give up, never surrender |
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harvestmouse
Joined: May 13, 2007
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| Posted:
Apr 15, 2014 - 22:57 |
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| cameronhawkins wrote: | | Garion wrote: | I agree with everything you have said about Squigs, that is my feeling towards them as well. But what's wrong with High Elves vs Dwarves?
I don't think that's a bad match up for high Elves at all really. |
Ok. I kinda agree that it's not that bad. But Harvestmouse said it was once, and I sorta took his word for it. |
Wait wait, I said what..... I know I can spout some manure when I've had a few, but I can't remember that one.
In fact I think (would have to dig a few braincells out the toilet) that I've always said that zons vs dwarfs isn't as bad as a match up as people make out.
I'm not sure I have an opinion on Helfs vs Dorfs. Of course this isn't to say I may have had an opinion after a few JDs and Dr Peppers. |
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Nightbird
Joined: Aug 02, 2003
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| Posted:
Apr 16, 2014 - 00:02 |
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Looks like the changes have happened for Squig Herders, but Eshin has yet to be implemented. Is there a time-table for the changes to be implemented? |
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"If most of us remain ignorant of ourselves, it's because self-knowledge is painful
& we prefer the pleasures of illusion." ~Aldous Huxley |
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Inforthepain
Joined: Jul 10, 2013
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| Posted:
Apr 16, 2014 - 00:52 |
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Hi!
I might not be up to paste, havnt followed the thread but I wounder about some of the changes:
Squigh Hoppers: have been nerfed by remowing their Claws (I like that, mmmhmmm!) but been buffed by giving them Jugger, Very Long Legs and Two Heads that will make them even greater blitzer! (not against big guys, but awzm againt everyone else!) Also adding another +AV to put it into the forest goblins faces is a big improvement.
Squigs: have been buffed with another skill: jugger.. (why? they need a nerf imo  ) +5.000 cost (well needed, but not enough because they are rarely hurt anyway)
Herders:no changes
We are playing Stunty Leeg Table Top and as the Boss of our leeg would I like to keep up with the changes that you implement to the Stunty Teams and I would greatly appreciate if you updated the "Stunty Leeg Rulebook". Like putting in the Pro Fling team into it and these changes squigs and whaterver team you want to changes so that we tabletoppers will have an easyer time to keep up (We love the work that you do! STAY STUNTY!!!)
To make the Squig Herder team more balanced did we implement that you have to roll both Really Stupid and Blood Lust when activateing a squig (because, acording to the rulebook are both skills supposed to be used when activating the player(This can be discussed elsewhere)) for ex:
Activate the squig Nibbles
Nibbles rolls for Really Stupid [x]
Nibbles rolls for Blood Lust [y]
If he fails with the Really Stupid roll will he lose his tacklezones but will also have to roll for Blood Lust. If the Blood Lust also fails will he not be able to bite anyone and will be sent off the pitch even if he is standing next to anyone (and that will be causing a turnover! Dum Dum DUM!!!)!
This might seem like a big nerf but I play Squig Herder myself and my team normally do 6-10 cas each game
I like the Loner idea on the Squigs but remove the jugger and maybe add pro to them and add our Leegs Rule for Really Stupid & Blood Lust. Last but not least wouldn't I Mind lower the armor on the Herders, 6 is enough, Forest Gobbos got it |
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Proud coach of DBK |
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WhatBall
Joined: Aug 21, 2008
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| Posted:
Apr 16, 2014 - 02:11 |
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| Inforthepain wrote: | Hi!
I might not be up to paste, havnt followed the thread but I wounder about some of the changes:
Squigh Hoppers: have been nerfed by remowing their Claws (I like that, mmmhmmm!) but been buffed by giving them Jugger, Very Long Legs and Two Heads that will make them even greater blitzer! (not against big guys, but awzm againt everyone else!) Also adding another +AV to put it into the forest goblins faces is a big improvement. |
They also lost MB and S access, so they are definitely not as good as they were for blitzing. If they are still too good, I will consider Pro being removed.
| Quote: | | Squigs: have been buffed with another skill: jugger.. (why? they need a nerf imo ) +5.000 cost (well needed, but not enough because they are rarely hurt anyway) |
Juggs only works on a single blitz, so it is +5 each, but single use.
| Quote: | | We are playing Stunty Leeg Table Top and as the Boss of our leeg would I like to keep up with the changes that you implement to the Stunty Teams and I would greatly appreciate if you updated the "Stunty Leeg Rulebook". Like putting in the Pro Fling team into it and these changes squigs and whaterver team you want to changes so that we tabletoppers will have an easyer time to keep up (We love the work that you do! STAY STUNTY!!!) |
Planning on updating. Just switched computers, but not my files. Also a lot of RL overhead right now. I will do it when I can.
| Quote: | To make the Squig Herder team more balanced did we implement that you have to roll both Really Stupid and Blood Lust when activateing a squig (because, acording to the rulebook are both skills supposed to be used when activating the player(This can be discussed elsewhere)) for ex:
Activate the squig Nibbles
Nibbles rolls for Really Stupid [x]
Nibbles rolls for Blood Lust [y]
If he fails with the Really Stupid roll will he lose his tacklezones but will also have to roll for Blood Lust. If the Blood Lust also fails will he not be able to bite anyone and will be sent off the pitch even if he is standing next to anyone (and that will be causing a turnover! Dum Dum DUM!!!)!
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I like that idea, no idea if the client can handle it though.
@NB: Eshin might get a small tweak soon, probably some minor AV for now. |
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skoberget
Joined: Sep 16, 2013
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| Posted:
Apr 16, 2014 - 11:43 |
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I like the effort to nerf the squigs some. But I feel like that this change is almost a buff to the team - they won't hurt as much as before but they will be able to do things more reliable which will probably see them winning more games.
On another note:
I would like to see passing access on flamers in Horrors of Tzeentch team making them somewhat better than what they are atm. |
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Bullroarer4
Joined: Oct 22, 2012
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| Posted:
Apr 16, 2014 - 14:08 |
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There are four squig teams in this year's exploding cup. Mine is the only team with a winning record. I feel a larger data sample should be in order. |
_________________
Tenacious doesn't begin to describe me. Never give up, never surrender |
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Craftnburn
Joined: Jul 29, 2005
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| Posted:
Apr 16, 2014 - 14:12 |
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| skoberget wrote: | | But I feel like that this change is almost a buff to the team - they won't hurt as much as before but they will be able to do things more reliable which will probably see them winning more games. |
+1
| skoberget wrote: | On another note:
I would like to see passing access on flamers in Horrors of Tzeentch team making them somewhat better than what they are atm. |
+2  |
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cameronhawkins
Joined: Aug 19, 2011
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| Posted:
Apr 16, 2014 - 15:17 |
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Flamers don't have Passing access to create a more interesting contrast between them and other bombers.
The dynamics are "strong-as-rookie vs. strong-when-developed", and "very reliable vs very volatile".
Flamers start out as effective and reliable bombers –– St3, more mobility and more durability, Safe Throw, without Secret Weapon, and +1 to all their Passing rolls compared to Stunty bombers. However, they need doubles to improve their bomb-throwing outright. |
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Stonetroll
Joined: Jun 30, 2005
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| Posted:
Apr 16, 2014 - 15:24 |
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Indeed, lack of P access is a perfect balance solution to the flamers. |
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xnoelx
Joined: Jun 05, 2012
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Apr 16, 2014 - 15:31 |
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Also, both the Flamers and Wyrms used to have P access, and it was taken off them. Much as I'd like to see it back, I don't think it's needed, and I doubt we'll see a u-turn. |
_________________
 Nerf Ball 2014 |
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WhatBall
Joined: Aug 21, 2008
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| Posted:
Apr 16, 2014 - 16:08 |
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| skoberget wrote: | On another note:
I would like to see passing access on flamers in Horrors of Tzeentch team making them somewhat better than what they are atm. |
Not gonna happen. |
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WhatBall
Joined: Aug 21, 2008
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| Posted:
Apr 16, 2014 - 16:14 |
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Eshin Update
Minor tweak to the Eshin, the Assassin and Night Runners get AV7, at no additional cost as the team was already overpriced for each player. This puts them more in line with Gutter Runners, which is the next step up in their progression line.
Still toying with other minor tweaks, but a small durability buff may be enough. |
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Beerox
Joined: Feb 14, 2008
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| Posted:
Apr 16, 2014 - 16:32 |
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| WhatBall wrote: |
Not gonna happen. |
You should play a game or twelve with Horrors. Just sayin'. |
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Overhamsteren
Joined: May 27, 2006
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| Posted:
Apr 16, 2014 - 19:44 |
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Why are squigs even AV8 to begin with? |
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Like a Tiger Defying the Laws of Gravity
Thanks to the BBRC for all the great work you did. |
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