FUMBBL :: Online Blood Bowl League

Wreckage

Joined: Aug 15, 2004

Posted: Mar 27, 2015 - 12:27

Leilond, Kryten dc of accurate passes on adjacent squares is not a bug. The rules paragraph on diving catch has been posted multiple times in this thread. It requires an accurate pass and explicitly a pass on the recieving players square. This is also clearly within the spirit of the rules, as a pass to an adjacent square, however accurate, is not really an easy to catch pass into the hands of the reciever.

happygrue

Joined: Oct 15, 2010

Posted: Mar 27, 2015 - 12:40

But as we bow to the NAF, we would also bow to their rules interpretations, and DC is clarified here:

http://www.thenaf.net/blood-bowl/rules/clarifications/

After a discussion somewhere on TFF. The testing team also covered this and we decided to use the NAF rules clarifications in all cases IIRC: I believe that is also in the FFB release notes but I am busy and can't check now.

There was also a bug report about this somewhere.

_________________
Come join us in #metabox, the Discord channel for HLP, ARR, and E.L.F. in the box!

Leilond

Joined: Jan 02, 2012

Posted: Mar 27, 2015 - 12:44

Wreckage wrote:

Leilond, Kryten dc of accurate passes on adjacent squares is not a bug. The rules paragraph on diving catch has been posted multiple times in this thread. It requires an accurate pass and explicitly a pass on the recieving players square. This is also clearly within the spirit of the rules, as a pass to an adjacent square, however accurate, is not really an easy to catch pass into the hands of the reciever.

Sorry, didn't know it was dicussed

Well, I do not agree on what the rules says. The rules says that you have +1 to catch an accurate pass, and if I throw a ball to an emtpty square and roll a 6, I made an accurate pass and thus, the diving catch player should have the +1 to catch (+2 to catch if the accurate pass is directed to the square of the player, +1 for accurate, +1 for diving catch)
In page 12 and 13 of the manual it say "Catching an accurate pass +1" and never talk about the fact that the accurate pass must be directed to the player square

By the way, it is not a big issue, I won't ever put diving catch on any gutter runner and the problem is solved. I can easly live with it, we cannot agree on every single point of view Wink

You're the admin, your the rules, no matter if the naf agree with me or not Wink

Cheer

Wreckage

Joined: Aug 15, 2004

Posted: Mar 27, 2015 - 13:03

Leilond wrote:

Well, I do not agree on what the rules says.

There is 0 ambiguity about this.

Look, this is from the beginning of the thread:

El_Jairo wrote:

To quote CRP:

Quote:

Diving Catch (Agility)
The player is superb at diving to catch balls others cannot reach and jumping to more easily catch perfect passes. The player may add 1 to any catch roll from an accurate pass targeted to his square. In addition, the player can attempt to catch any pass, kick off or crowd throw-in, but not bouncing ball, that would land in an empty square in one of his tackle zones as if it had landed in his own square without leaving his current square. A failed catch will bounce from the Diving Catch player's square.

Quote:

You're the admin, your the rules, no matter if the naf agree with me or not

Also, I do not know if you are still adressing me, but I assure you I have no affiliation with anything official regarding the site or the game. My statements represent nothing but my own personal opinions. Forum admins have a special note added on top of their statement when they post a forum entry so you can identify them.

Leilond

Joined: Jan 02, 2012

Posted: Mar 27, 2015 - 13:11

Wreckage wrote:

Leilond wrote:

Well, I do not agree on what the rules says.

There is 0 ambiguity about this.

Look, this is from the beginning of the thread:

El_Jairo wrote:

To quote CRP:

Quote:

Diving Catch (Agility)
The player is superb at diving to catch balls others cannot reach and jumping to more easily catch perfect passes. The player may add 1 to any catch roll from an accurate pass targeted to his square. In addition, the player can attempt to catch any pass, kick off or crowd throw-in, but not bouncing ball, that would land in an empty square in one of his tackle zones as if it had landed in his own square without leaving his current square. A failed catch will bounce from the Diving Catch player's square.

That is the ADDITIONAL +1 to catch for the DIVING CATCH, written in the diving catch description
It is not releated to the +1 to catch for the accurate pass written in page 12
You read those like the same bonus. I read it like two different bonuses that can be applied both, or only the accurate one

At leas it is how I understand it
+1 for accurate pass
+1 if you have diving catch and the accurate pass is in your square (for a total of +2)
+0 if the pass isn't accurate, no matter the square it lands

Again, I do not agree with you and the NAF too, in his clarification page agree with me, but this is not my site and thus not my rule, with pleasure

Last edited by Leilond on %b %27, %2015 - %13:%Mar; edited 1 time in total

Wreckage

Joined: Aug 15, 2004

Posted: Mar 27, 2015 - 13:12

Quote:

You're the admin, your the rules, no matter if the naf agree with me or not

Also, I do not know if you are still adressing me, but I assure you I have no affiliation with anything official regarding the site or the game. My statements represent nothing but my own personal opinions. Forum admins have a special note added on top of their statement when they post a forum entry so you can identify them.

Leilond

Joined: Jan 02, 2012

Posted: Mar 27, 2015 - 13:16

Wreckage wrote:

Quote:

You're the admin, your the rules, no matter if the naf agree with me or not

Also, I do not know if you are still adressing me, but I assure you I have no affiliation with anything official regarding the site or the game. My statements represent nothing but my own personal opinions. Forum admins have a special note added on top of their statement when they post a forum entry so you can identify them.

Hope no one get offended!!!
I was not addressing anyone specific. I'm only saying that, if there is someone that choose how to read the manual rules in this site, he has the right to do whathever he want... He's giving me a wonderfull and completely free games and if I don't agree with a rule... well, worse for me Very Happy

The problem is my english and my use of "YOUR". I edited it

Really, I've an idea on how the diving catch work, but I can survive with the fact that the site rules are different
If I can play and have fun with this awfull kick-off table, I can live with a "nerfed" (for what I think) diving catch

So it's not a bug, but a precise decisione of the client developer. Ok, I can live with it

PainState

Joined: Apr 04, 2007

Posted: Mar 27, 2015 - 14:44

Wreckage wrote:

You lost me on leap. Smile

Here is why leap is a good skill for a catcher, even a lowly AG3 catcher.

Catchers who are carrying the ball and attempting to score sometimes run into that sticky situation where the defense has set up a wall of defenders. Your lowly catcher does not have leap and thus faces the daunting task of having to weave his way through multiple TZ.

Lets take the most basic scenario, the OTS attempt.

If you have to dodge in and they have a standard set up it requires 3 dodges at 5+, 4+ , 3+ and then usually 2 GFI.

If you have leap it is a 4+, 3+...so the Leap skill now has negated the 5+ dodge roll, WHICH IS HUGE on the odds of a successful play. Also when it comes to rerolls you ideally have a Team Reroll for the leap and then you have dodge for the dodge reroll on the dodge out.

_________________
Comish of the:

Last edited by PainState on %b %27, %2015 - %14:%Mar; edited 1 time in total

PainState

Joined: Apr 04, 2007

Posted: Mar 27, 2015 - 14:49

Here is some math to back up my bold claim.

Lets use the standard example from above, the OTS attempt to get past the wall of defenders.

The dodge through plan: Catcher has dodge and sure feet. So, he needs a 5+, 4+ , 3+ and 2 X GFI

No Team Reroll chances: 25.72% with a team Reroll: 33.69%

Same scenario BUT the catcher has leap, dodge and sure feet. So he needs a 4+, 3+ and 2XGFI

Chance of success: No Team Reroll: 41.15% and with Team Reroll: 62.58%

Not bad odds I would say for a lowly chump AG3 human catcher.

_________________
Comish of the:

happygrue

Joined: Oct 15, 2010

Posted: Mar 27, 2015 - 17:31

Leilond wrote:

At leas it is how I understand it
+1 for accurate pass
+1 if you have diving catch and the accurate pass is in your square (for a total of +2)
+0 if the pass isn't accurate, no matter the square it lands

You *are* correct, and here is the bug report I mentioned existing above: https://fumbbl.com/FUMBBL.php?page=bugs&op=view&id=1832

I don't know the current status, but Kryten tested it and said it wasn't correct so my guess is the bug is still active currently. Perhaps helped along because it's filed under FF instead of FFB test?

EDIT: And here is the original TFF thread (including text from Galak): http://www.talkfantasyfootball.org/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=34991#p619487

And our previous discussion of it with Garion clearing things up: https://fumbbl.com/index.php?name=PNphpBB2&file=viewtopic&t=23576

In summary: We follow the NAF ruling on this, if the client doesn't work like that then it's a bug.

_________________
Come join us in #metabox, the Discord channel for HLP, ARR, and E.L.F. in the box!

El_Jairo

Joined: Jun 08, 2005

Posted: Mar 27, 2015 - 18:02

I wasn't aware that there are still so many bugs in the Java Tool.
Time to donate to FUMBBL again, to get those bugs fixed!

_________________
By the way Pheadrus, do we need anybody to tell us what is good and what is bad?
NAF n°: 21249

Wreckage

Joined: Aug 15, 2004

Posted: Mar 27, 2015 - 22:37

Seems a lot of my concepts are more practical in nature than actually backed up by the rules. Not that it really makes a difference. It's not like we can tell the client to make the accurate adjacent catch work with +1... but good to know. I'll adapt the next version of the 1000 losses guidebook accordingly.

painstate.. thanks for the explanation, you now fully convinced me not to take Leap if I ever feel the need to use a human team.
Your mathematics show convincingly that both approaches you outline have a success probability I would not want to invest skills into. I rather look for ways with a high rate of success and then proceed to improve them. I believe a good coach should be capable of winning without having to rely on OTS-chances.
It may be worth it to invest in them at times as some sort of back up plan but there is still a cost/reward ratio to consider. It is never a pure reward scenario where you can truely compare your situation with/without leap. Ultimateively all skills help, some just more than others. A leap with ag3 will never exceed a 50% chance probabilty of success and embedded into a series of other actions becomes neglectably small. I see how the OTS attempt would not succeed without it and how you could get stuck in game in front of some sort of screen, but the only thing I conclude from that is that I should avoid to create either of those situations when playing humans.
Maybe I should add as an explanation that both scenarios you outline do not describe a full blown 1 turn attempt scenario in that they don't account for the hard part of the whole thing, wich is pushing a player three squares over the line and handing the ball to him in the process. Their chances of success therefore have to be modified accordingly. The scenario you outlined had an exclusive re-roll for the leap which is in an actual OT scenario rather unlikely, although it holds some validity for the blocked path scenario. Either way, I'd not want to rely on a 68% chance of scoring from a blocked path either, that could be catastrophic... even in my last turn it could be terrible if it makes the ball accessible and allows my opponent a final score attempt in his last turn...
Although a player is not really likely to ever go 6 skills without a stat up or double and his value is questionable if he does, I want to also propose an alternative rather than criticise the constructive, helpful, informative and well founded advice you have given and propose Diving Tackle for its amazing synergy with Block, Dodge and Side Step.

mrt1212

Joined: Feb 26, 2013

Posted: Mar 27, 2015 - 22:55

"I believe a good coach should be capable of winning without having to rely on OTS-chances."

This should go without saying. OTTDs are a crutch and subvert developing your skill as a coach.

On the other hand, anything goes when the mini are on the table and the dice are thrown - I'd expect a good coach to be cognizant of what he/she needs to do to both execute and defend against a OTTD and if a coach is planning on using it, or even has a good threat of it, it can change the game dynamics of the game and how they play defense. If someone won a Major with a OTTD it's not like most of us would find that dubious since for you to get anywhere in this game, you kinda have to know what you're doing on all other 14-15 turns of the game. (I do not practice what I preach though. OTTDs for life!)

PainState

Joined: Apr 04, 2007

Posted: Mar 27, 2015 - 23:14

Interesting, that OTS is a winning tactic.

I have found that there are very few scenarios to be found that a OTS is a winning tactic. It is most commonly used as a tactic to score the tieing score and taking the match to OT in tournament play.

So in ho-hum R/B action the OTS is used to prevent losses and turn them into ties.

Also I used the OTS scenario because it is the easiest to visualize with out having 197 variables to discuss on why to do this or to do that.

_________________
Comish of the:

mrt1212

Joined: Feb 26, 2013

Posted: Mar 27, 2015 - 23:26

PainState wrote:

Interesting, that OTS is a winning tactic.

I have found that there are very few scenarios to be found that a OTS is a winning tactic. It is most commonly used as a tactic to score the tieing score and taking the match to OT in tournament play.

So in ho-hum R/B action the OTS is used to prevent losses and turn them into ties.

Also I used the OTS scenario because it is the easiest to visualize with out having 197 variables to discuss on why to do this or to do that.

It's not explicitly a winning tactic the vast majority of the time but if you tie the game on Turn 8 of the first half, sure that's to equalize at the time, but it makes it more likely that you'll win if you're equalized at the half and are receiving the kick to start the 2nd half all things being equal. I mean, I can't verify the accuracy of this feeling through stats but I feel like its the case based on the games I've played with one turners.

You're right though, usually it's a "save my bacon" kind of move.