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JackassRampant



Joined: Feb 26, 2011

Post   Posted: Oct 09, 2015 - 02:32 Reply with quote Back to top

Snotwin's Law:

"The first coach to reference an NBFL builder team in any serious coaching discussion automatically loses the debate."

Sorry, Lick.

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DrDiscoStu



Joined: Feb 20, 2006

Post   Posted: Oct 09, 2015 - 05:33 Reply with quote Back to top

xnoelx wrote:
You're almost all very, very wrong.


is that a 4.0 ogre? why wouldnt you take juggers?

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garyt1



Joined: Mar 12, 2011

Post   Posted: Oct 09, 2015 - 06:02 Reply with quote Back to top

Much as a double and block is massive for an ogre I would go for strength and hope I get block later.

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Beerox



Joined: Feb 14, 2008

Post   Posted: Oct 09, 2015 - 06:25 Reply with quote Back to top

Unless he already has Block, take Block.
the.tok



Joined: Jan 25, 2006

Post   Posted: Oct 09, 2015 - 14:30 Reply with quote Back to top

garyt1 wrote:
Much as a double and block is massive for an ogre I would go for strength and hope I get block later.

I would do the exact same thing.

You will get a lot of block ogres, not a lot of 6ST ones. And if you get block later, 6ST + block is amazing.

And with break tackle, 6 ST can allow some silly things with ogres. And you need to be able to do some silly things playing a joke team like ogres Very Happy

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JimmyFantastic



Joined: Feb 06, 2007

Post   Posted: Oct 09, 2015 - 14:36 Reply with quote Back to top

To everyone saying you can get Block later... I'd rather have St5 with Block & Tackle, or Blodge, or whatever.
Doubles are really good on Brogres and they just don't need any more ST.

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Royston



Joined: Dec 05, 2008

Post   Posted: Oct 09, 2015 - 16:15 Reply with quote Back to top

Not saying if block or +st is better and I know Humans with an Ogre is different to Ogres, but this guy scares opponents like nothing before.

https://www.fumbbl.com/p/player?player_id=9720769

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Mr_Foulscumm



Joined: Mar 05, 2005

Post   Posted: Oct 09, 2015 - 16:18 Reply with quote Back to top

JimmyFantastic wrote:
To everyone saying you can get Block later... I'd rather have St5 with Block & Tackle, or Blodge, or whatever.
Doubles are really good on Brogres and they just don't need any more ST.


Yupp, and Ogres will get -2d desperation blocked... a lot. ST6 doesn't help there, block does. Ogres is pretty much my only exception to the "always pick +st rule". Smile

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PaddyMick



Joined: Jan 03, 2012

Post   Posted: Oct 09, 2015 - 16:27 Reply with quote Back to top

Take the +ST. Yes Block is great and you need it on as many Ogres as possible, but there's more chance of another double than rolling another 6,6.

+ST gives you 3 dice blocks with only one assist vs st3. It is hard for your opponents to deal with also.

ST7 is awesome but you can't get there unless you take ST6.

Do you want a special player or an ordinary one?
licker



Joined: Jul 10, 2009

Post   Posted: Oct 09, 2015 - 16:36 Reply with quote Back to top

JackassRampant wrote:
Snotwin's Law:

"The first coach to reference an NBFL builder team in any serious coaching discussion automatically loses the debate."

Sorry, Lick.


Ahh, but you fail to realize that this team was actually competitive before the switch to non-competitive builders was put in place.

Trust me, I wouldn't have linked them if they were 'just' an NBFL builder team. If that's all they were, then why are they carrying an ogre?
cdassak



Joined: Oct 23, 2013

Post   Posted: Oct 09, 2015 - 16:37 Reply with quote Back to top

Royston wrote:
Not saying if block or +st is better and I know Humans with an Ogre is different to Ogres, but this guy scares opponents like nothing before.

https://www.fumbbl.com/p/player?player_id=9720769


I prefer him for the same tv, Ogre team:
https://fumbbl.com/p/player?player_id=9991976
licker



Joined: Jul 10, 2009

Post   Posted: Oct 09, 2015 - 16:38 Reply with quote Back to top

Everyone is free to prefer whatever they like.

There's still only one right answer though.

Wink

By the way, I've done this a zillion times before, assuming you aren't worrying about TV, +ST is ALWAYS better than block when it allows for an extra dice on blocks, and removes a dice when getting blocked.

So really ST3-4 isn't that huge because you still don't get a lot of 3ds, and you still take a lot of 2ds against.

ST5-6 is gigantic though, and 6-7 even more so (though somewhat limiting returns to 7 due to general ability to get assists on a st6 with st3 players anyway).

Block doesn't help you as much as you think when you get to really high ST.

:edit: That's not saying there still isn't insane value in going from 3-4, but it shows up less, depending on the team, matchup, and player of course.

:edit2: Also why going from 1>2 or 2>3 is of even lesser value, even though as an absolute you are getting the biggest increase, it just doesn't show up on the pitch as much as going from 4>5 or 5>6 does.
PaddyMick



Joined: Jan 03, 2012

Post   Posted: Oct 09, 2015 - 16:44 Reply with quote Back to top

Mr_Foulscumm wrote:


Yupp, and Ogres will get -2d desperation blocked... a lot. ST6 doesn't help there, block does. Ogres is pretty much my only exception to the "always pick +st rule". Smile


I disagree. What's wrong with encouraging desperation blocks? They are a good thing to happen to you - especially if you have Stand Firm. In any case, with some Guard around, ST6 means those desperation blocks will often be -3bd (or not happen at all).

Also,your +ST guy is unlikely to be your ball carrier. He's more useful in the thick of it.

...and has anybody mentioned how sweet +ST is with Multi-Block?
Mr_Foulscumm



Joined: Mar 05, 2005

Post   Posted: Oct 09, 2015 - 17:05 Reply with quote Back to top

PaddyMick wrote:
Mr_Foulscumm wrote:


Yupp, and Ogres will get -2d desperation blocked... a lot. ST6 doesn't help there, block does. Ogres is pretty much my only exception to the "always pick +st rule". Smile


I disagree. What's wrong with encouraging desperation blocks? They are a good thing to happen to you - especially if you have Stand Firm. In any case, with some Guard around, ST6 means those desperation blocks will often be -3bd (or not happen at all).


It's great to encourage desperation blocks. I never said it wasn't. But block takes away 6 combinations of dice that puts the Ogre on his ass (the pow + skull/pow results. The push/pow + skull/pow results and the good old double skull/pow results.)

I can't be bothered to calculate the odds, but it's not as uncommon as it might seem. Also, having guard Ogres around is great for pushing it to a -3d block. But boneheads happen at the worst times and it's just not something I'd feel comfortable banking on. Add to the fact that other teams can have guard as well.

But agree to disagree I guess. Smile

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PaddyMick



Joined: Jan 03, 2012

Post   Posted: Oct 09, 2015 - 17:10 Reply with quote Back to top

Fair enough Smile
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